TRANSCRIPT Tele-Workshop: Developing Interpretive Themes These are Federal Lands, the Scenic Byway Coordinator here at the America’s Byway Resource Center. He works with BLM, Forest Service, Fish and Wildlife Park Service et cetera on many of their valuations as well as linking Federal Lands issues with National Scenic Byways throughout the country. Mark had been gracious enough to work with his cohorts within the Forest Service in [INDISTINCT] and others to find enough trainers and he--he and Bonnie Lippitt, our trainer, have a long working history together so I’ll let Mark introduce Bonnie and enjoy the call. >>Thanks, Chel. I’m delighted this afternoon to introduce Bonnie Lippitt. First, I would like to say, I’ve had the privilege and honor to work with Bonnie when I was with the Bureau of Land Management in Eugene, Oregon as a recreation planner and Bonnie, as a professional Visitor Services Program Manager with many Federal resource management agency, she’s had over 25 years experience with the National Park Service, Forest Service and most recently the Bureau of Land Management. Her assignments have been varied and diverse. She’s worked at Alcatraz and the low level at the Death Valley National Park then on to Alaska and most recently with the Mount St. Helens National Volcanic Monument. Since 1999, Bonnie has served as a shared Regional Interpretive Services and Tourism Program Manager for both the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management and the Pacific Northwest Region, stationed in Portland, Oregon. These experiences have not only introduced Bonnie to the natural and cultural wonders of the west but also a full range of interpretive and tourism endeavors including planning, product development and contracting, staff training, visitor services management and a whole lot more. So, without further ado, I surely would turn it over to Bonnie, and thank you Bonnie for hosting this Tele-Workshop. >>It’s my pleasure and I’d like to say hello to everyone. First of all, if I speak up this level, does that work for everyone? >>Yeah. >>Yup. >>You can now hear me? Okay. Just holler if you can’t, usually, that’s not a problem. I am making this call from my desk so that I can use my headset. Also--and this will be the first time that I’ve done a telephone- teaching conference. I’m used to doing this in front of a group and many of you, I know, have had experience now doing some of these audio calls so let me know if something’s not clear and I’ll do my best to provide a more descriptive background on what we’re talking about to be able to have folks picture it so we’ll just take it from there. >>So, the topic today is, Themes and Thematic Interpretation and to set the stage a little bit, this whole concept of interpretation, it’s a fancy word and within the profession itself, we often debate about whether people understand it or not. But I want to refer to the definition of interpretation as offered by the National Association, that is our professional group, because I think it helps point us in the direction that we’re going today. Really, interpretation is a form of communication and so we’re sending a message. We’re sending it to an audience and in the case of the sites and places that most of us work, they key thing to keep in mind about that audience is that it’s a non-captive audience. They don’t have to be there. They’re choosing to be there and they can choose to just easily, to not be there either physically by leaving or mentally by checking out and so we need to work to be able to not just present our message but present it in a way that is engaging and memorable. Interpretation is, isn’t just communicating any message, it should be attached to the mission of our organization or our project to where, in this case, our byway. And for most of us, what that’s going to mean is that, we’re trying to connect that audience with the resources that that byway has, it’s intrinsic qualities and that varies from byway to byway but our goal is to help our traveling public understand those resources. >>And finally, in interpretation, what we try to do in order to accomplish all of those goals and make those connections is that we try to go beyond just making an intellectual connection. We want to make an emotional connection as well because when we experience feelings and emotions along with just facts and figures, we tend to store that information in different parts of our brain and we tend to keep it in longer term memory and it’s there for us to access. And for most of us, in order to accomplish our mission, our goals, is for people not only to learn about a byway and the communities and to help protect their intrinsic values, we want them to help them carry home messages. We want them to take care of the route. We want them to respect the people. We want them to travel other byways if they had had a good experience. And all of that is likely to happen more frequently if the memories and stories they have connect with the part of the brain that is the longer term memory. So that’s what interpretation is, that’s how we are thinking about it today. >>And themes are the way that we do a couple of things to accomplish the mission. They’re central to this process and the bottom line is, research shows us that people don’t remember facts. Most of us, you know, you get a string of facts and you may remember something for a while but we really don’t remember facts. However, we do remember a main idea or a concept or a thought and we tend to remember stories so what a theme does is it helps us connect those facts and intellectual pieces that make up the resources that we have and connect them with bigger ideas and more cohesive stories so that our visitors can remember them and hopefully act on them. So, when we talk about themes as being central to interpretation, really, that’s the tool that we’re going to use to help not just make those intellectual connections but those emotional connections between our resources and our audience. So, in your reference, the first handout, and I don’t know exactly what order they came up on, in the FTP site but there is a graphic that is entitled, What It All Boils Down To. >>Uh-hmm. >>And--so, if everyone can take a minute and hold that up--it’s a series of three circles connected by a triangle in the background. Does everyone have that? >>Yes. >>Okay. I’ll give everyone a minute. >>Maybe. >>Maybe. Yeah. It’s the one that’s got… >>Okay. I got it. I got it. >>A whole drawing. Got it? Okay. And so this is a graphic representation of what we’ve just talked about, What It All Boils Down To, what you’re trying to do on your byway, what I try to do when I’m in a National Forester or a BLM district and, you know, if you have a history museum. You have your audience, you have your goal, your management goal, you have these tangible resources and you’re trying to connect those in a way that provides an opportunity for communication and the themes are the vehicle to help us realize that interpretive opportunity and move on to conveying those messages and stories by choosing appropriate media and choosing appropriate locations and choosing appropriate venues for telling those stories. So that’s just a simple visual reminder of what it all boils down to. >>The second handout behind that one is called Interpretation or Thematic. And again, interpretation is just a form of communication but because we have non-captive audiences, what Dr. Sam Ham, who is one of the leaders in this profession, captured and pulled together from a lot of communication researches that there are four things that help provide for effective interpretation, effective communication. And he always used to refer to it is as erotic without the I-C. So you can think about it being erotic but without the I-C. So, the E is enjoyable because we have a non-captive audience and so it needs to be enjoyable. The R is relevant, we tend to pay attention to things that connect in some way, shape or form with our own experiences or where we’re at and that’s what relevant means. The O is for organized, we do a better job when the information that we’re hearing or reading or experiencing is presented in an organized manners, step by step, in a way that we can know it’s coming and file it and retrieve it. And then the T is thematic, that it’s based on a complete thought, a point of view that it has a message, that it’s not just a collection of topics and so that’s what this particular handout shows. And these two handouts were taken from an NAI training workbook, so I just want to reference that. >>So, one of the things that’s really key to understanding themes and we’re going to touch on that next, and this page starts to introduce that idea, is that many of us, if I were to ask you what the themes of our, of your byway, you might actually give me a topic not a theme. “Oh, it’s about--you know, we have geology that’s one of our themes. We have pioneer history, that’s one of our themes. We have the settlement of the West, that’s one of our themes.” Well, the way that we use terminology in the interpretive profession those aren’t themes, those are topics. It’s the label of a kind of information. It’s a vague, broad category. It doesn’t express a complete thought. It doesn’t have a point of view or a perspective. It’s simply a name. Do any of you currently have interpretive plans that really list your themes as topics right now? Some of you have that? >>Yeah. This is [INDISTINCT]… >>Yeah. >>And I think ours is probably, oh, well, ours is, where West meets wild. >>Yeah. So, you know, it’s kind of a catch phrase and a lot of times we tend to shorten our themes down to be catchy but the ideas we really want to be able--we don’t have that many opportunities to actually tell our story to the public and the more complete that story can be and the more that it has a point of view or a comprehensible message, the more successful we will be at telling our message, sharing it and having the public receive it. >>So, we’re going to talk first, if everyone could get the page in front of you, it’s just a good exercise and we’re going to do it together as a group. It’s sort of the difference between recognizing a theme and a topic. So, a topic is a broad category, it’s a label, it’s a name, it’s very vague. It doesn’t say what about the item. It simply names it. A theme, on the other hand, is a complete sentence. It expresses a complete thought. It has some perspective or some point of view and this particular table has a list of a couple of things. I want to give everyone a chance, just to go down the list. Well, why don’t we do… >>Is this a long list? >>We’ll do it as a group. So, there’s, the title of this page is Recognizing Themes and Topics and… >>And is it page? The next page after the last when we were on is Combining Two Approaches, doing, presenting, planning. That’s not it. Is it on another page? >>No. The documents may not have been loaded into that FTP site in the order in which… >>So, we have to go back to where that might be, what was it, Themes and… >>Yeah, the heading of this page is Recognizing Themes and Topics, and it has a list of themes and topics with the little--slide off to the left of them to… >>Oh, this is bad because I’m the way away now, okay? Because I’m doing this strictly on the computer. Recognizing Themes and Topics, okay, that came in first. >>Great. >>All right. >>Okay. So we got everyone? >>Yeah. >>Okay. We’re going to read down to this list and folks, just call out what they think it is. Bald eagles are the symbol of our nation. >>Theme? >>Theme. >>Well, mine is taking--I’m showing a wait sign. I’m waiting for this to come up. So--you can go on but I’ll have to catch up. >>Okay. Well, maybe just listen, you’ll be able to access these documents and I think the idea is to be able to recognize whether it’s in front of you in writing or many times, our visitors may hear the theme to be able to tell the difference. Endangered bald eagle. >>Topic? >>Topic. >>Topic. Okay. It’s a little bit. We know they’re endangered but we don’t know what about them. >>It’s an incomplete. >>It’s incomplete. So, it says… >>Exactly, the topic, right. I wish I was a Stellar sea lion. It’s a complete thought so it is… >>A theme. >>A theme. Correct. Now, I will say, right at the start that some themes are better than other themes. Some are more compelling, the point of view that they express is more engaging, you know, this one might work for some folks and it might not work for others but right now, we’re just exploring the difference between theme and topic. Elephant seals’ mating rituals and other erotic stuff. That’s and incomplete thought. >>Topic. >>Uh-hmm. Topic? Yeah, it’s a fairly detailed, incomplete thought but it still… >>Right. >>Doesn’t tell us a perspective or point of view about that and it’s not a complete, complete sentence or thought. Of Pelicans, Puffins and Pelagic Cormorants. >>Topic. >>Topic. >>Topic? Okay. The stories of the stars talk through the night sky. >>Theme. >>Theme. >>Theme, yes. >>Okay, Inupiaq, People of the North. >>Topic. >>Topic. >>Topic? Okay. [INDISTINCT] Mysteries and the Creation of the Earth. >>Topic? >>It’s incomplete. Yeah, it’s still a topic, again, it’s starting to give a little more information but it’s really not a complete thought. Seals and Their Blubber. >>Topic. >>Topic. >>It’s a topic. >>Water is green for a reason. But it doesn’t answer what the reason is so it would be incomplete. >>No, it’s a theme. >>Well, it’s a comp--it’s a theme. It’s a complete thought. Now, what you’re seeing is that normally when--it offers a point a view so you next question is, well, what is that reason? Those are going to be the points, then, in a thematic program that would focus your presentation, that would focus your brochure, that would focus you with an answer to that question of why but it does offer a complete thought. It does offer a point of view and it also sends the message that you’re going to tell me why it’s green for a reason and, so you better deliver that. So part of thematic interpretation isn’t just having a strong message but it’s then pulling in those pieces of your story that support that message and weeding out the pieces that don’t. And we’ll talk about why we do that in a minute but, but yeah--so it is a theme and again, like I say some things are better than others. Modern agriculture is based on the good work of worm. >>Theme? >>Theme. >>Theme. Yup. >>Yeah. Trains, Planes and Automobiles. >>Topic. >>Topic. >>Yeah. >>Movie? Yeah, right. >>Books. >>We’re going to talk about that, too. Remember that comment. Transportation brings the door step--the door to your--the world to your door step. >>A theme. >>Theme. >>Theme. >>Okay. This Old House. >>A topic. >>Topic. >>Topic, right. Okay. We’re getting this down pretty well. Historic houses reflect the life and times of their owners. >>Theme. Theme. >>Yeah. And what you can see is when start to present things in a theme, I may not remember all of those stories or all of the times, was it the 1850s that this house represented or the1860s? But I am more likely to remember that overall thought which, if I’m into historic preservation of traditional buildings would be important that story--you know, houses tell stories of their history and their valuable and that’s probably one of the goals of the site that has this theme to help carry a bigger story, bigger message, connect that tangible house, not just with what’s in it but beyond. Okay, the old west wasn’t so wild after all. >>Theme. >>Theme. >>Theme. >>Theme, okay. And you can start to see, and I think, the woman who mentioned there, topic that was, you know, kind of a tag line. Sometimes what engages you in a theme is playing against what people expect, that when we think of the Wild West it’s always said that. It’s always said that way, the Wild West. And so you’re using a hook as part of presenting your theme to help cause a question or express a different point of view that might evoke some curiosity. Famous Cowboys and Their Horses. >>Topic. >>Topic. >>Topic, okay. Desert People of the Past. >>Topic. >>Topic. >>Topic? And Killer Bees Are Coming to Get Us. >>Theme. >>Theme. Now, you can see that, if you were to think about your byways, you might be more likely to hook or engage people in the stories that your byway has to tell. If you were able to think about not just that, that it’s going to talk about geology but what story about geology is it going to tell? What’s the complete thought? And so--we’ll explore that a bit more. But I think it’s important when you start talking about interpreting your byways that you start thinking in terms of themes and complete messages rather than just the laundry list of topics because really topics sort of equate to facts. They--people aren’t going to remember them. They are not going to remember the list of attractions and view points and that you have ten stop and three vistas and a farm and a this and that, but they will remember if you’ve tied those features together in a complete message or story that offers the point of view and so that’s what we’re going to be working towards. I do know that they’re likely to have some follow up, conference calls or Tele-Workshops that will talk more about interpretive planning but really integral to interpretive planning overall is the ability to identify the themes of your byway and to be able to then put that in the mix of how you’re going to work with audiences and what media are going to help. But knowing how to write themes and knowing how to capture those for your byway is really an important piece whether you’re doing a comprehensive plan for the whole byway, whether you’re ending up developing a wayside with one sign in it, whether you’re doing a brochure, you want to use every single one of those opportunities to be telling a cohesive, memorable story that highlights what’s important about your byway. You don’t just want a give a list of topic. Okay. I think we’ve got that one. So, the next page I‘d like you to look at is a page called Writing Theme. >>Oh, goody that’s just next from… >>That’s next, yeah. And that--see, when it’s organized it helps, doesn’t it? It’s supposed and it’s not. So Writing Themes, again, Dr. Sam Ham was really a key person and sort of--they were the stars of the profession back in the days of Freeman Tilden and then back in the 60s. And then, Sam Ham was really kind of a key person that pulled together a lot of communication research. He wrote a book called Environmental Interpretation. He’s a professor at the University of Idaho in Moscow and he pulled together this piece of what we know about interpretation and communication today. And here were his three simple steps for writing a theme. And so we’re going to go through these and then I’m going to have you guys write a theme or two and share it with the group. So, the first step is, select a general topic and use it to complete the following sentence. Generally, my presentation is about. And then second, state your topic in a more specific term. I just noticed, there’s a spelling error there--term. And complete this sentence, specifically, however, I want to tell my audience about. And then the third step, now, express your theme by completing the following sentence, so you will end up with a sentence. After hearing my presentation, I want my audience to understand that. >>So here’s an example. This was taken from earlier in my career. I started my interpretive profession in prison. I actually worked at Golden Gate National Recreation Area in San Francisco and my job was to lead tours of Alcatraz, the Prison, the Island. So if we were to use that as our starting point, my example would be: Generally, my presentation is about Alcatraz. Okay, that’s the topic. Number 2. Specifically, however, I want to tell my audience about the type of inmates at Alcatraz. Okay, that’s still in a topic form, it’s not a complete thought but it’s starting to narrow things down a bit. Okay, number three. After hearing my presentation, I want my audience to understand that the inmates of Alcatraz were not the most dangerous criminals in the system. Okay? Complete thought. Now, again as we look at that list of themes and topics we realize that some themes might be a little more engaging, a little more powerful. Using active verb, active tenses is a way to make things more powerful, using stronger verbs: cut, blasted, transformed, stronger than change. So again, it’s a process of thinking and writing and selecting the most powerful combination of words, so it is a process. But here was something that I pulled together. >>Contrary to popular belief, America’s most notorious prison did not house its most dangerous criminals. So that starts to, at least have a hook. It starts where people are because a lot of the visitors there thought it did house the most dangerous people in the system and it certainly was the most notorious prison but most of the people, when they did the tour came away learning that it was a very different kind of prison than what they had imagined from the movies and so that was part of the goal of our tour, it was to help give them a more complete understanding of why that prison was notorious, what it was about, and why it closed. >>So, I have my theme and then you’ll see that in this particular presentation or offering, I’m going to talk all about the history of the island, and the Indians that over took it, and the fact that it was the site of the first light house on the West Coast and--I mean, those are all the good things but if I want people to get my main message about this prison, then I’m going to talk about the fact that they were considered incorrigible and that was the prison system term that meant they didn’t do well in prison. Whether or not they did well on the outside, they didn’t work well in the prison system. So these were the guys that maybe just got put in jail for, like, drug abuse or theft but then they’ve killed a prison guard. Okay, that’s being incorrigible. Maybe you were a murderer but if you were good in the prison system, you didn’t get sent to Alcatraz. >>The second point was that, there was really only about 200 inmates that were ever there at any one time. It was very small. They all had their own rooms, et cetera, et cetera. The third sort of supporting point was that really, some prisoners were put there because they were, in a sense, political prisoners. You know, Al Capone he--they just wanted him get out of being in contact with other people and they could do that at Alcatraz. Some of the folks that were accused of treason were put there. >>So you start to see how--you’re refining what you really--the story that you’re telling--so I’m not just going to tell a broad topic of Alcatraz, I’m going to focus on a particular part of that topic and I’m going to tell a story about the inmates and I’m going to try to capture that in compelling way. And , I’m going to offer the information that helps support that point of view. And I could offer, you know, depending on the theme that I have, I could offer other perspectives as well. But you start to see how I’m hopefully more able to convey something that a person will remember by using themes and by supporting them with sub-themes. So does anyone have any questions about this? >>No, but I have a comment. >>Okay. >>I visited Alcatraz in the 1970s. >>Uh-huh. >>And I was also told about the Bird Man of Alcatraz. >>Uh-hmm. >>But I don’t think it was you because I think it was a guy. It was a guy, a man. >>Yeah, there has been many guides through the years and now they give you headphones and then you walk around and do self-guiding but they’re still often trying to tell some of the same stories. >>You know, your story was familiar. >>Yeah. Okay. So what I’d like for you to do now is just get a scrap, a piece of paper and think about your byway or your site. I’m thinking most of them are byways but maybe it’s a particular site along a byway and you’re thinking about interpreting that particular site. And I’d like for you to answer those three questions and don’t try to work with it too much because the intent is just to get a sense of how this works. This is a process that takes some refinement in writing, and setting it aside and pulling it back again and running it by other people. So I don’t want to imply we’re going to come up with highly polished themes but, I think, it would be useful to hear what some of the themes that you have for your byways. So take a few minutes and answer questions one, two and three. Okay. Do you think you’re ready? >>Sure. >>Need a little more time? Okay. Who ever said sure, why don’t you introduce yourself and share with us what you have? Well, my name Steve Schaller and I work at [INDISTINCT] Interpretive Center in Great Falls, Montana. >>Hi Steve. >>Hi. For my topic, I pick Golden Eagle. >>Okay. >>My topic in more specific terms, the connection between Golden Eagles and Native Americans. >>Uh-huh. >>And then the theme I came up with, Many [INDISTINCT] Indian Cultures Are Intimately Tied to the Life of the Golden Eagle. >>Sounds good. [INDISTINCT]. Okay. >>Great. Thanks. >>You see how it, it works. So, then you’re starting to think about that story and it’s much more, it starts to evoke something in my mind. Okay. Who else? >>But I don’t know whether I got it right but I’ll tell you what I did. >>Okay. Before we start… >>My topic being--I'm using the beginning of the sentence. Generally, my presentation is about the Connecticut River being more than just a river. >>Okay. I am with the Connecticut River Byway and… >>Uh-huh. >>That’s between New Hampshire and Vermont. Then, my topic, I say is, specifically, however, I want to tell my audience about the different types of towns, villages and areas in our byway. And then, the expression of the theme, I wrote, after hearing my presentation, I want my audience to understand the Connecticut River is highway to the past, of the present and to the future with history, culture and art. >>Okay. >>Maybe that’s too wordy. I don’t know. >>It could be too wordy but it’s a complete thought and it does, you know, what I understand is that, because your byway is named the Connecticut River Byway, as an audience, I would be thinking you would be telling me about the river but your goal is really to sort of talk to me beyond the river and so, you’ve selected a theme. I might leave off the last pieces. We’ll talk about that in just a bit. In fact, yeah, I’ll talk about it. Well, here’s a few more and then I’ll talk about why I suggest that. Okay. Someone? But that was good. That was good. >>I have one. >>Okay. >>And this is? >>Okay. >>Martha? >>Christina. >>Oh, Christina. Hi, Christina. >>Yeah. Hi. My Christina? >>You are Cristina, [INDISTINCT]. >>Hi, Christina. Yes. Okay. Go for it, Christina. >>Specifically, I want to tell my audience about the attraction of water. After my presentation, I want my audience to understand how people are--how people relate to water in many ways. Some use it and it leads to the point. Some use it to experience hobby such as photography, where water is part of the network of imagery. And others use it for refreshing the spirit. Keeping the emotion and the sound and yet, others use to play and, you know, by swimming directly or boating or fishing just the end form of the water. >>Okay. So, it sounds like you’ve got three sub-themes in mind and you known that. State your theme again as a complete sentence. >>This is Katie [INDISTINCT]. >>People--your number 3, state it one more time as a complete thought. >>People--I want my audience to understand about the attraction of the water. >>I want my--I want my audience to understand that… >>How people relate to water in many ways and then… >>I would just make it, people relate to water in many ways, that’s a complete thought. >>And then the point, use the point? >>Yeah. And then use the point. >>Okay. Good. Okay >>One more? >>Joshua here from the... >>Hi, Joshua. >>I’m with Mad River Valley Planning District and the… >>Okay. >>Mad River Byway. >>Okay. >>At Vermont, the first one was generally; my presentation is about recreation along the Mad River. Specifically, however, I want to tell my audience about the multitude of recreation options. And certainly, after hearing my presentation I want my audience to understand that the Mad River is integral to origins of kayaking, biking and running. >>Great. Okay. Now, some people, one of the reasons you start to go to this process and these were sort of offered in a particular course for people who are doing a presentation but I would like to encourage you to think about and you don’t know always have to say, but many times if you think about how little time we have to actually attract someone’s attention, you know, you think about walking through a mall or you think about walking through a trade show or you think about driving along the highway and, you know, people are going to make their decisions fairly quickly. Sometimes they only have as little as three seconds and then they may pause and you got another 30 seconds where they are sort of, you’ve captured them enough, they’re going to stop and they’re going to see if something pertains to them. But if it really doesn’t, they move on and then, even when you do have their attention, they may only have, you know, another couple of minutes, two or three minutes before they’re ready to move on. So, I would encourage you to start thinking about the title and subtitles in your brochures, in your taglines, if at all possible, in your interpretive signs, in your media. To start thinking about offering your audience those titles in the form of themes and they could be very short themes. >>But for an example, when I worked at Mt. St. Helen’s National Volcanic Monument, our interpretive, one of the interpretive signs on the big deck was, Volcanoes Create Lakes. Okay. Now, that’s very short but it’s a complete thought. It has point of view. People don’t often think of volcanoes as being a creative force, they think of it as being a destructive force. But if my audience only ever read that title, they would still get, they would still get the story and they might even remember it. But if I just use something more generic as a topic, a volcanic lake or water is the key, you know, that’s not going to tell my audience very much and we have so few opportunities to really catch them with our messages that I would encourage you to think about, as you develop the plans and the materials for your byway that you think about each time, at each step of the way whether it’s your, you know, your over all interpretive plan, where you’re identifying your main stories and themes or each product that you think about delivering that message of that particular product with a theme rather than just a catchy little topic hat because it’s likely to stay with people longer. Okay. So, any questions or comments on this part of it right now? Any… >>I have a quick question. This Katie [INDISTINCT]. Hi, Katie. >>Hi. It seems like most of the theme states, for abstract, it didn’t point to something in the immediate landscape. >>Okay. >>And I wonder, isn’t… >>That’s a good segue into the next part of the presentations so, bear with me here. A theme needs to pertain to your side and I think, a lot of times people sit down and they say, “Well, we need to talk about this. We need to talk about this and we need to talk about this. Oh, and we should talk about this.” And then they make themes based on what they think they should talk about. And I guess what I would encourage you to do and what we’re going to explore in the next part of the talk here is, how you can come up with more compelling themes that are really tied to your side. So, in order to do that, again, I'm going to do an exercise, it’s an exercise I’ve never done auditorially, I’ve only ever done it physically but I think we can do it. So, I'm going to mention an object to you. And if you have a piece of paper in front of you, you can write this down and if you don’t, that’s fine. I'm going to keep track. And the first time, I'm going to mention this object and then, I would like you people one at a time to offer a word that describes a tangible or physical characteristic of this object. Okay. So, we’ll give it a try, I think it’ll be clear when we do it. So, you’re ready for the object? >>Yes. >>Okay. I'm holding in my hand, not really it’s virtual, but I'm holding in my hand a bottle of beer. Okay? So, I want a tangible or physical characteristic of a bottle of beer, someone? >>Cold. >>Cold. Yeah. In this case, it is cold. I just took it out in the refrigerator. >>Brown. >>It’s Brown. >>It’s what? >>Brown? >>Yeah, I was going to say brown glass. >>Brown. Okay. Yup, brown, yeah, and foam if we were to open it. >>Frosty. Yeah, frosty, tasty. >>Refreshing? >>Well, frosty, tasty? >>Refreshing? >>No. >>Okay. I'm going to put a star next to that word refreshing. Okay? What else about this bottle of beer? >>Its round. >>Round. It is round. >>Microbrew. >>Yeah, because I was in Portland and, of course, I'm not just going to have any bottle of beer the label says it’s a microbrew. One of ‘90s that are available on the State, by the way. Okay. One more. >>It’s October so, it must be from Octoberfest but that’s not-- >>Oh, leftovers. >>Left of it. >>I hate you. >>No, I haven’t opened this bottle of beer yet, one more physical characteristic. >>The pint. >>It’s a pint, okay, so the size. So we’ve listed some tangible qualities, the very factual. These are sort of the intellectual pieces of this bottle of beer. But just like our byways and just this to what Katie was looking to. We want to start which what our tangible resources are, because of all of our byways have them. And then we want to link to what those resources represent, because in most cases if they have been designated as a National Scenic Byways, they’ve been designated as a park or history in museum, they carry some meaning beyond just the fact that they are round, refreshing, and a microbrew from Oregon. So, now what I’d like for you to give me are some words that describe the same bottle of beer but that pertain to some intangible quality of it or some concept that pertains to them. Okay. >>Relaxing. >>Relaxing. >>I gave you the refreshing. >>Refreshing, in some descriptors, can be voted a tangible description but also an intangible description, when you say refreshing, what are you picturing in your mind? >>Well, I’ll tell you-- >>Are you picturing the cold? Are you picturing cold beer going down your throat and it really is refreshing, because you are thirsty? >>Yes. >>Or you’re thinking about sitting around in a hot dusty place and in your lounge chair and kicking back for the day? >>The first time refreshing was the first description you gave me. Second time was the second description. >>Exactly. Okay. Someone else? >>I’m thinking a reward. >>Pardon? >>I'm thinking reward? >>Reward, yeah. Reward at the end of a hard day of yard work. Okay. What else? >>I would say death. >>Death. >>Mm-hmm… >>What did you say? >>Death. >>Death. >>Gas? G-A-S? >>D-E-A-T-H, death. >>Oh, okay. What comes to mind is intoxicated and-- >>Uh-huh, okay. What else? Another word, someone else? >>Litter. >>Litter. Another? >>Sharing. >>Sharing, another? >>Euphoric. >>Euphoric. Mm-hmm… Another? >>Bitter. >>Bitter. And my sense is again that this is one of those words bitter that can describe the taste or, it can describe someone’s life time experience with, perhaps living with an alcoholic. You have bitter. >>Social. >>About--say it again? >>Social? >>I couldn’t hear for her. >>Social. >>Social, yes. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. Party, celebration. >>One of the ingredients comes to mind to me, hot. Hot, because I grow hot. >>Okay. So, again. >>It grows hot because they pretty. >>So, for most people hots would be a physical characteristic. But for you, it translates. Now, note that the images that are tangible object evoke. We start to shift gears, they’re not--we’re not just neutral about some of these things. We’re happy about them or sad about them. They bring up hard memories or fun memories. We start to make emotional connections and remember about to what we’re trying to do, we’re tying to connect with the audience, our resources, but we’re trying to do in both an intellectual way and an emotional way. Connecting the tangible with the intangible is a critical way of strengthening your themes and tying your place. >>Now, I want to note that there were a couple of intangibles here that were really--they went to the next level, which are known as Universal Death. There's some intangible concept that regardless of who we are, and where we are, what country where in. Even if our experience with it is slightly different, we understand it. That love, hate, survival, if you can connect to not only an intangible concept but a Universal Concept, your story is likely to resonate even more powerfully with your audience. So, you don’t want to force speed that. If it is not there, it’s not there. But if you can start to think about your story not in your byways and this is what I do when I start making themes about bigger areas and byways. I list a lot of the tangible resources. “Okay. This byway have some view points, it has a historic cemetery.” And then, I sit down and I brainstorm either of myself or with a group of people, better with a group of people and say, “What are these represent?” “Well, you know, pioneer history or self-reliance or--,” you start to get people describing what those resources mean? And then, you’re able to develop themes that can link those two. And as you develop your interpretative median as you meet with your visitors, you’re able to convey, well not just that this is an old, crest mill but, you know, this crest mill is an example of how, you know, the people that used to live along this route were self-efficient. And it’s a reminder to us today of, you know, how far we’ve come or how far we’ve left that lifestyle and how it’s nice to be reminded of it, you know, by buying organic weed, you know, you see what I mean. >>Mm-hmm… >>So, when there’s a--sorry to make whoever’s on the computers go back, but there’s one last page here that talked about combining two approaches to presentation planning or themes? >>Uh-huh. >>And so, this just gives you an idea of how you sort of link those together. So, this is going to be a program about bald eagles. They want to know that bald eagles were facing extinction. And so their theme is Bald Eagles, the symbol is America and freedom. Okay. America, Intangible. Freedom, Universal or Back After Flirtation with Extinction. And if I only read that, I would know a lot. >>I would know you’re point of view, I would know why it was important to hear about this. If you’ve look at the stairs step below, on the bottom side of the stairs, they’re mentioning the intangibles that relate to that. I mean, excuse me, the tangible characteristics. They have big mass, they eat carrion, it was DDT that went into their systems, it created thin eggs and dead babies, and now they are at 5,000 pairs. But, if you look at the intangibles from the upside of the stairs, memory, home, survival, recycling, death, protection, recovery, freedom. So, what they’re doing is they’re linking the physical characteristics of what they want to talk about with the intangible pieces that they represent. And it allows you to craft themes and sub-themes and stories that are much more compelling, and are much more likely to be remembered, and hopefully acted on by our visitors. >>So, having said that, I want to go to the larger document which is the document that labeled the theme guide and it’s produced by the National Park Service, it’s produced by a person that, two guys that work in their Denver office and wanted to pull together some good tools for the folks doing interpretation in the National Park. Now, this is a fairly extensive document, but I actually want to point out that probably two- thirds of it are really examples of different parks in different places. So it’s really a way for you to see how different protected areas, in this case, park, that you could substitute byway in here, and you’d come up with the same idea, how they’ve done this process? >>Now, what the Park Service says, and this gets to Katie’s question, is before they start working on their theme, they do a step that’s called statements of significance, because what the park says is you can’t tell every story. It’s not possible. You don’t want to do that. You only have a few opportunities, and here’s where we get to the formula I mentioned a few minutes ago. Communication research has told us that most of us, at any one time, can only process about seven items or seven ideas, plus or minus two. So if you really, really, really, maybe an auditorium learner and you really are focused, and you just happen to have that kind of brain, maybe you can remember nine things. Some people can remember seven, a lot of us can only remember five, and the fewer than five, where you’re going to increase your odds of people, actually more people are going to remember more of what you’ve said. So if you think about your byways, and the stories that you want to tell, you can’t tell 20 or 25 different stories you could that people would be confused and they might not go away with anything, because there are just much be too much. So the process of interpretation isn’t about telling everything that you can possibly tell. It’s actually about choosing very carefully to only tell the most important stories, the stories that you’re best at so that you are able to reach your visitors with something. >>Now, I will just mention that if you think about things like you telephone number, that’s why we have dashes in them, or that’s why we have parenthesis around the area code, because in your mind instead of seeing 10 numbers or 10 objects, your brain processes of that of 3 chunks of information, not 10. Or your social security number, you process that as 3 chunks, not 9 or 10 so, that’s why we do it. And I would encourage you that more isn’t better when it comes to messaging. Doing a good job of thinking about the most important messages and theme, and sharing those is better than doing a whole laundry list. So, what this Park Service document indicates is that, really, you want to start with what significant about your site, because that forms the basis of the theme. >>So if you look at page 13. Now, I’m not going to go through these whole document, this is a resource for you to read through for those who are really interested, very park service specific, but there are some good things to pull from it. But if you look at page 13, is everyone there? >>Not yet. >>Not yet? Okay we’ll give you some time. >>Yeah, I’m only on page four. >>Okay, well, scroll down to page 13. >>I am. >>Okay. On what page 13 is entitled is “Developing the Set of Significant Statement.” And significant statement basically are the most important, according to the first paragraph there, they are facts, placed in relevant context that makes the facts meaningful, summarizes the essence of the importance of the park’s resources to our natural cultural heritage. So, we’re really trying to get at the essential point. So, if you follow down towards the bottom of the left hand column, what is the useful set of statement? And we look at the bullet, they go beyond just listing the significant resources and they include some context. They’re true, many sites have stories but they’re not actually based in scientifically or other substantive knowledge. And so, we want to really get to what’s true about a place. There’s a lot of places--when I worked at Mount Saint Helen, they always used to talk about, “Well, this is the newest land on Earth.” Well, you know, probably for a few days after May 18th, 1980, it was. But, you know, 25 years later it’s nowhere near the newest land on Earth. So we need to be careful that what we’re describing is significant about our site is really actually true. Do the statements reflect current gallery inquiry? And do they accommodate for changes? Do the statements describe why the park and the byways important within the local, State or regional or global context? So, that’s what we’re trying to do first with our statements of significance. I would say, Katie, that you’re right, some of those, it’s not just enough to kind of come up with a laundry list of topics, and start to come up with themes for them. You want to look at your byway and you want to say, “Okay, what can I do on this byway? What are the resources? What are the things that on this by way that I can’t anywhere else or that are the best example?” And we’re going to start there, and let’s describe those significances, physical characteristics. And then we’re going to look at those physical characteristics. And talk about the intangible concepts they represent. And then make our themes. >>So, I’d like for you to look at page 31, because I think there’s a really good example there. And this is the example of Fort Davis National Historic Site. And what I like about all these examples in this document, and some go on for a long time, and they are better written than others. But they show you the significance of the site, on the left, and then they show you how that particular site condense those statements, in the right, into their theme. So, they show where they started, and then they show what stories they’re going to tell, and what intangibles they’re connecting to, and what bigger story they’re tying into. So is everyone on page 31? Fort Davis Historic Site. >>Yeah. >>So there are five statements of significant. Now I’ve--has anyone ever been to Fort Davis? >>No. >>I never have. But I can tell you, I’ve used this example before and I feel like I understand why Fort Davis is a National Historic Site and what it represents. >>Where is it? >>I have no idea. I’m thinking of somewhere out by the Transpecos regions. So I’m thinking it must be-- >>San Antonio? >>Somewhere, you know, down near Arizona, Kansas, I don’t know. >>Okay. >>Anyway, let’s read about Fort Davis. So, on the left there’s significant. So they have five things that are significant. Fort Davis, so, this is Civil War fort. Apparently that, you know, there’s a lot of Civil War forts. They’re post Civil War forts all around the country. So, why is Fort Davis important? What stories can it tell? Well, its first significance is that it’s one of the best remaining example. Because it’s got--it is still almost intact. Okay, so they may have been a lot of other forts that maybe they’re falling down, or they’re reproduction. So, what’s significant about this place is it still intact. Okay, well, I get that. >>Fort Davis provides an excellent opportunity for understanding and appreciating the important role played by African-Americans in the west and in the frontier army because black troops served at the post. Okay, not every civil post, Civil War fort had black troops. So, that is significant. Fort Davis provided key troops and supplies. And the Victorio campaign which ended meaningful resistance of the Apache band in that area. So, there are many forts, and they were all engaged in some part of the Indian wars that this was the key won in helping to end the campaign and the hostilities of the Apache. >>Oh that’s pretty significant. >>The history, and integrity, and character of the military post hasn’t changed significantly since its establishment, so the landscape around this port, not only the building are intact, but the landscape around it hasn’t changed just dramatically maybe of some other forts. So, you really are able to get transported back in time, you’re able to experience it as more the landscape as it was, then perhaps, any other forts, so, it giving it context. >>And finally, Fort Davis was strategically located to defend that region. And the San Antonio Pass the road in the Chihuahua Trail. And so they controlled activities on the southern stem of the Great Comanche War Trail and the Mascalera Apache War Trail so, strategically located to deal with this specific Native American trail and conduit for conflict. >>So, you know, there’s many things about that fort, they could say that it’s, you know, 10 feet by 20 feet, and it is built of wood, and it housed 50 soldiers, and but those are just a list of laundry, a list of fact and resources. What this tells us, if we are still talking about the tangibles, that it tells us about what’s really important about what significant about these resources. >>Mm-hmm… >>Now, statements of significance, you can see, are expressing complete thoughts. They give context, they give meeting, they set, they answer sort of the question of why is this place, what are the most resources that this place have? And again, I think for a lot of our byways, we want to interpret everything. It’s sort of a-- we want everyone to know everything about, everything that we have, and everything in our vicinity and every piece of history and you know, it doesn’t work with people, it’s too much so the more we can choose and distinguish ourselves, and tell the story that we can, the better. And it start with really understanding, what is significant and sharing that not being afraid to do that. >>Now, the second step then, kind of keep your hand on page 31. But if you take a look at page 21, once you’ve gone through the process of identifying your statement of significant. Then the park service document recommends, then you sit down and you come up with themes. Now there are some schools of thoughts, some folks say it usually has one theme and it should accomplish everything. If you can do that effectively, fine. But if you come up with the theme that’s so generic, that it doesn’t say anything I don’t think that, that serves well. So what you’ll see here is that parks may have 25 things that are significant and maybe they come up with 6 main themes or 3 main themes or 2 main themes or 5 main themes. What you want to do is you want to make sure that your theme capture--now I have to correspond item for item that capture the significances and condense them only to the point that it is meaningful to do that. Again, they’re themes that are stated as a complete thought. They have a point of view. They connect this, the tangible with the intangible. >>Now you’ll also see that these are pretty long themes we are talking about a whole park here where they are trying to capture a fairly comprehensive collection of resources and stories… Your byways might be that if you have a primary theme for your byway where it’s maybe a sub-theme that translates to a specific side that it’s going to be much more focus and much shorter, much simpler like the themes that we started with this morning. But I think you’ll be able to see the idea. So let’s go--look at Fort Davis again and see what they said. Well from those 5 significant statements… We’re back on page 31, they decided that there were 3 primary themes that they wanted to share if you were this that are at Fort Davis and it’s a pretty good number it’s less than the 7 plus or minus 2. So your chance of conveying that thought would be pretty good. Maybe you only get one of this across on a visit. Maybe you get 2, maybe you get all 3. But if you get any one of this I think you will be significantly farther along than just sort of providing a collection of topics and a whole bunch of information. >>So let’s look at their theme. The history of Fort Davis and composing the conflict between Native people and the ever increasing flow of immigrants and settlers to the Transpeco region provides opportunities to explore the ideas of security, sovereignty and culture identity in the American west. So there you start to get to what is that fort represent and it can represent in different things to different people to us it maybe represented sovereignty if we were a part of the settling group to--or security to the settlers to the Native Americans that were the recipients of the forts attention. It probably represented something completely different and the loss of their cultural identity. >>Second theme, the historical integrity of Fort Davis including all of the things that are remaining, enables a deeper understanding of the realities of frontier military life in the west. So it’s not just a recreation or someone’s idea that what was there is there and it’s usually pretty eye opening to our present day and way of life to see what people are really living like soldiers and what they had to endure to just on a day to day basis to keep going. >>And in the third story on theme, the history of African-American soldiers at Fort Davis is an important chapter in the larger American social movement towards the equality for all citizens, a movement that continues today. So they could just say why they were black troops in here. But what they are choosing to say is you know they weren’t that many forts that have black troops this is after the Civil War, this is a step to where maybe you don’t have complete equality but you’re starting down that long road it’s a milestone and where we have come since then. You know now having diversity in the military as a goal and that’s extended not just a racial diversity but to gender diversity and you can start to use the site to tell a bigger story and producing people are more engaged and it starts to relate to what they know. So that is a more in depth way to think about themes and how they would help tell your story and there’s many, many, many examples here. >>I’ll give you a list of a few I would look at if you don’t read the whole document. You might look at page 28 that made sovereignty because it talks about that’s fight and it’s role in being one of the very first fights that was nominated as a National Monument and the Antiquities Act and that was a very big change in our thinking. The next page Vandelier page 29 it’s interesting because it talks about some of the Science and what being one of the most studied areas and why that significant because there lots of quest dwellings and some that are most spectacular. So what they choose to focus on is a different aspect of their quest dwellings. >>Page 33, Olympic National Park they actually go on page 34 they’ve got, oh a bazillion statements of significant but they only--they’ll boil it down to three themes. I thought that was interesting. >>Page, 36 Florescent, softer beds it’s interesting just because they’re dealing with a time travel kind of thing, how do you tie and fossils with today and they have a theme that talks about really it’s a place where you can think about the bigger questions of life and time and how we evolved. The other two I might look at would be page 43 the Almoro I think about that is kind of interesting one again. I think it doesn’t have too much content it’s pretty straightforward like Fort Davis and you can see, “Oh, I see.” Now there are two things there: one about water and one about __. And then __ National Monument on page 48 it’s kind of interesting one too. So those might be some if you were--didn’t want to read the whole thing and weight through it. Those might be some that would be interesting and might give you some examples. >>The last thing I mentioned towards the back of this--I’m not going to go into it today but there is a section on page--about page 57 to 60 that shows how you start with the theme or your themes and then identify sub-themes and how those might point to then median. And I think that’s the process where we want to get to it with our byways. We want to have an interpretative plan and that plan is going to identify our audiences, our statements of significance which our resources and identify our goals for developing this byway. >>We are going to have three of those together like our first diagram that’s going to provide us with an interpretative opportunity and we are going to want to pull together those stories and themes that best represent that opportunity and then once we have those we are going to go back and think about those audiences and we are going to go look at our themes there and I’m going to say, “What are the best median to use to tell those stories? Maybe it’s a brochure for this audience and maybe it’s a sign for that audience. If it’s a pod cast for that group there. And where are we going to do this? And so you start to finally make decisions about the method such as stories you are telling and how you are going to implement them and it’s a very considered approach all the way through. So that hopefully when visitors travel your byway they will know the one or two or three most important stories about your route. It’ll be presented them in a way that they can remember automatically connecting tangibles and intangibles. So they are more likely to remember at long after their byway experience is gone and long after they’ve forgotten the specific detail, the name of the rock formation or what was that community called. And that you’ll be able to achieve one of your goals of your byway which is to tell the story of that road in a way that’s meaningful to your visitors and to your communities. >>Because really when I think about a byway that’s really what it is, it’s a road for the story and we want to tell those stories as effectively as we can and our theme, our vehicle for helping us decide what those stories are and how best to tell them. So, that’s what I have and I can tell you that based in Dave usually in trainings, going over this material that we’ve covered in about an hour and 15 minutes. >>So it just a taste and hopefully you have a better idea of how to do some simple themes. You have a better idea of what steps you might take if you’re working with your byways to tighten up your themes or to develop an interpretative plan for your byway or to have more effective media that you are implementing as part of your byway plan and certainly I always welcome questions after the meeting and via e-mail so I think- -Michelle, did you provide my e-mail out to them? I don’t know if Michelle is on. Let me give it to you know and if you want to run something by me I’m always happy to take a look at it and provide thoughts and you can take them for what there worth but if sometime is good to find by someone who doesn’t know your site so well so they can ask the questions that will help bring it alive. If I can get it and I’m sitting here in my desk in Portland then my guess is your visitors won’t likely get it too. So my email is blippitt@fs.fed.us. >>Okay. >>Can you repeat that please? >>blippitt@fs.fed.us. And I welcome your questions or if there’s something that wasn’t clear in the materials or you want me to take a look at something that you have. Or want to share some feedback that would be great. This is my first time doing this so I wanted to try and pick some things that might be useful to you. Okay, Mark. >>Oh, Bonnie first I just like to thank you for this exceptional Tele-Workshop and also the handout materials that you presented in--especially the National Park Services theme guide I think there are all very helpful document and then briefly the resource center will create a pod cast of today’s Tele-Workshop as well as the written transcript and we will post all of the materials that Bonnie went over today in her presentation as well as the transcript within hopefully 2 weeks on our website at bywaysresourcecenter.org. And then Bonnie also mentioned that she’d be available to answer questions via e-mail and I just, enclosing, Bonnie just thank you for this support you provide to the National Scenic Byways Program in Oregon and in Washington and just some of the great work that’s being done out there. Many thanks and taking the time for today’s Tele-Workshop. >>It’s a pleasure. >>Thank you very much. >>Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Thank you, Bonnie. >>Thank you. >>Okay. >>Your handouts are great. >>Well done. >>I do have a question. >>Bye-bye. >>Oh, yeah I’m still here. Until they wouldn’t cut it off I still be here. >>I’ll stay on for a minute, well I might wait as well. >>Yeah. >>What did you just mention? >>I didn’t because they are beeps. Okay, go ahead. Say it real fast. >>Okay, in giving us a four __ historical theme. How about if you have byways that have several teams for example it has spiritual, it has ideological, it has historical how would you approach that? >>Yeah, you know that is the challenge and again you are always balancing. Do you have distinctive audiences that are interested in one or the other? >>No. I think because of the municipalities which are--which is going to have the __ of municipalities. I need think it has its own significant. But there are important like the can say one better than the other. So how would you want all of them like--like all of those teams? But then your visitors will not remember even a single team. >>Right so is--has there been an attempt to get those communities together or those entities together and say are there some common characteristics between these different things. Are there some bigger stories that we can tell that might tie us together while at the same time then allow each to individualize? Did each community just come up with their own story and then you kind of put them together in a basket? >>Yes. >>Yeah, so it might be worthwhile and maybe and again I don’t know what kind of resources is specifically but I know their byways send are often and we’ll provide different sort of technical assistance to help byways. And it might be useful to see working with the byway maybe marker, others can help with that shell, could help with that to say well we think we need to maybe have a meeting of the entire byway of the people along the byway and that’s all feasible and say, “Look we’re trying to come up with some bigger some stories that help tie into the smaller stories and link them together and try to get some of people’s ideas about what maybe when they think about the whole route. What they are thinking about and go back you know ideally you follow a linear process. But most of us don’t live in a perfect world and different pieces of the byway came before other pieces. So certainly I would think that maybe getting the group together or some of the key people and say what we want to have some bigger stories that help link us all together as well as your individual stories, can you help us form those and see if that might work? >>Okay. >>Because you’re right. The more that you offer people and the less that it--it doesn’t mean some people are not going to have a decent experience. It just means they’re less likely to remember as much as what you’ve want as before. So you want to just increase your odds. >>Okay, okay. So by all means we should give more one team and that’s how you did on them? >>Yeah, we are at least trying to narrow it down to you know it sounded like you have a lot of communities and a lot of themes and topics you know. History, culture are there some overriding things and a lot of times the way I ask people is I start at the other way. I say, “Try find your byway.” And I only know one thing is the end of it, what is that? I can only remember one thing and then you know and I make people tell me what it is and sometimes it is really hard but if you get people talking about that you know they do tend to get, well, what’s really important is that people know that and that’s when you start hearing some of these bigger themes. And so for example there is Mark, aware of this byway--there was a byway down in the Eugene, Oregon area and they were really funny you know I mean it was just a pleasant route and when they really got down to it they had this little historic thing and that historic thing and they ended up coming up with a name in it and at first we didn’t really like the name but it actually expressed as a byways. The closest byways, the over the river through the wood Byway and you are thinking, “Well, my grandma’s house we go, she go.” But what they really what they got down to was that their route was a route that was a less busy route and driving that route was much more like by back in the day when you went to grandma’s house when it was kind of a winding you know 2 lane road and people stop and it was an all day kind of thing and there were farm stands along the way and it harkens back to a different, simpler time. And so their route was a lot of the trees and the scenery is like the past of the north of it and the past of the south of it. But those route have been improved and passing lanes and it’s a different experience and so when they thought about it, it doesn’t mean they are not going to highlight the cemetery and the museum and all the collection of stuff but their marketing under this and sort of have this theme that traveling this over there is a time, is a chance to travel back in time when the journey was a much more involved in engaging process that it is in today. It was part of the experience. >>I don’t know that helps but I would think that if you’re byways have some resources to have the resource center a common help do some sort of community you know one or two community workshops or proponent workshops we got a lot of the partners and ask them that and that would be a way to do it. >>Thank you, I know this is very useful. Thank you, so much. >>Okay, good. Great nice talking with you… Good luck.