TRANSCRIPT
Tele-Workshop: Assessing Historic Roads

>> Fantastic. Well, I’d like to welcome everybody to today’s Tele-Workshop on “Assessing Historic Roads.”  We are delighted to have with us Dan Marriott. And Dan is probably one of the foremost experts on Historic Roads in the country. He worked for many years with the National Trust for Historic Preservation and also has put on the Historic Roads Conference the last number of years. Dan has written a number of significant books about historic roads. One specifically that he worked on with the Resource Center called “From Milestone to Mile-Markers: Understanding Historic Roads.” So, I’d like to introduce Dan to the call.

>> Thank you very much, Chel. It’s a pleasure to be here and talk to you all. And I’m really excited by the diversity of people that we have on the phone call today as well. It’s a really nice range of folks. So, I say good afternoon. Or good morning--depending on where you’re calling from. Historic Roads I’m sure for many of you is a relatively new topic area. It’s an area that’s getting much more attention in the historic preservation world and it’s an area, unlike traditional preservation; it has a lot of different issues associated with it as well. So, a lot of traditional resources don’t always plan as effectively as they might for other types of preservation and analysis. Let me start out right now. What I’d like to do with the call is, for the first half, kind of go through some general issue and topic areas that I find people most often have questions about. Certainly, if you have questions, feel free to stop me and interrupt me as we go along. I’m more than happy to do that. As you probably hear, right now, too, I’m calling from my apartment in Washington, DC and there’s a fire truck going by. So, if there’s any disturbance, let me know if you have trouble hearing me at any time. What I’d to do toward the second half of the call is to leave it open for more of a general discussion with maybe some specific questions that you may have regarding a road or a corridor that you’re dealing with in your own community. I see that we have a number of folks from transportation departments, planning agencies, preservation organizations, so, it’s a nice mix. And right away, to me, it really showcases what we often deal with these types of resources, very diverse partners. And, oftentimes, partners that are working from resource bases are really learning from one another for the first time. I think the most important thing that came to me when I first started working with Historic Roads as a preservationist was that these aren’t like traditional historic resources. It’s nice to take in a historic house, some historic train station, you restore it, you put a nice rope around it, you have tours on the weekends, and everybody’s happy. It’s a lot harder to take a parkway on a freeway and say the State’s going to open it up Sunday afternoon from noon to 4 and you can travel it in a period vehicle, and it’ll be closed the rest of the week. A lot of commuters would probably be pretty unhappy with a solution like that. So, right away, it raises this issue: that Historic Roads have to meet modern needs for safety and capacity. And that find is often where a lot of the issues come up with in terms of assessing these resources and figuring out how to take care of them. At the outset of the call, I want to say, in terms of my own work and what we tried to accomplish with “Milestones to Mile-Markers” when I was working with the Resource Center on the publication that I believe you all have now, is that safety has to always to be considered as part of the process when looking at Historic Roads or corridors. That being said, as we get into this, I hope you’ll find that there is a lot of alternatives and strategies that you may look at to figure out ways to make these roads work well for you. I think the first thing that often comes to mind for people is just, you know, how do I know if I have a historic road, how significant is it, maybe who decides that, and how do we move forward from that point. One thing that I hope you’ll find helpful--and it’s a strategy that we developed from my first book and it’s reinforced in Milestones to Mile-Markers--is the identification of 3 typical types of historic roads. And I find that often, if you can properly assess what you have, it makes it much easier down the road determining what are the best strategies. The 3 categories that have been identified are: Aesthetic, Engineered, and Cultural. Aesthetic Roads, the first category, are roads which were designed for a very specific purpose--and that mainly being pleasurable or scenic driving. And that certainly plays into many of you that are working with scenic byways, but not necessarily all scenic byways. Aesthetic roads are roads for which the original design intent was that the visitor experience, the driving experience, would be very, very carefully designed and managed, even manipulated, scenic roads would have very carefully crafted views--the distant mountains or the seashore or across a rolling field for example. Aesthetic roads may also be urban parkways. They may be also urban boulevards or maybe the road has a long straight access that’s focused on a State capital building, perhaps. Or maybe has beautiful rows of trees, or may center on a courthouse square, for example, in a Midwestern town. So, these are roads which the whole point of their origin was about creating something that was beautiful or attractive or monumental. And, oftentimes, these carry with them a whole number of very carefully considered details, some of which may have been lost or eroded over time, but these are the roads where people paid attention to what material should the curb be, what type of pavement do we want to have, details for lighting, what types of street trees, there may be sculptural elements along the road and things like that. These are roads also for which the alignment, particularly if it’s more park or scenic roads will be carefully considered, where the curvilinear form of the road is very closely aligned to the natural topography of the land so that the horizontal and the vertical alignment of the road really works closely with the natural topography of the area and helps to reinforce the relationship with nature. So, again, these roads can be urban, they can suburban, they can be very rural and rustic, but they were all designed so that experience was really the most important thing. A lot of times for these roads, they spent more in the initial construction than they would for a typical road during the period and the purpose was really, again, driver pleasure, not efficiency of time, not ease of connectedness. What’s happened for many of these roads--and we can talk about this a little bit later--is some of these have become appealing for people for commuting. People are traveling on them in different types of vehicles for which they were originally constructed, and that sometimes creates cross points which become difficult. The second category are Engineered Roads. Like Aesthetic Roads, there’s a very particular decision to build these roads at the start. The US road system is a great example of that. We need to connect the nation with high-speed limited access travel. Most of our US roads, many, even just local farm-to-market roads in your communities, these often have origins as Engineered Roads. Someone felt the need to connect A to B, oftentimes, at the local and State level--and these roads were built. Usually, they’re much more pragmatic in their origins and nature, don’t want spend too much money where we will use a kind of a standard bridge design where we have to cross something, where we will use the basic lighting. It wasn’t about an aesthetic experience. It’s about simply linking to provide access for, you know, commerce, communication, transference of people and goods. So it’s much more pragmatic. What’s interesting with these types of roads is oftentimes, over time, things that might had been, you know, the basic off-the-Chelf solution by the State in 1930, now--because of time--have taken on some aesthetic qualities. You know, the standard, you know, kind of cheap State issued bridge from 1930, we now find very attractive and appealing because of its, you know, raw kind of comment on the industrial age and the steel that was efficient at that time has a beauty and attractiveness to us today, or the nature of some of the simple lighting or simple design details suddenly have aesthetic qualities that we associate now because they reflect a historic past. But I think it’s important always to remember that the origin of these roads was much more pragmatic compared to the aesthetic roads. The third category are Cultural Roads. These are the roads which probably many of you deal with. These are much grayer in terms of their origins and they’re much more evolutionary. These could be roads that originated from Indian roads or Early Colonial roads for which there was a desire to connect things up with no particularly strong engineering component or a policy component associated with them. Many times, these roads follow very logical land forms, mountain gaps, along the edge of a river or a stream, through the higher ground in a swampy area. They’re just in logical places, and people throughout history have basically followed these routes and they get re-used and re-worked and re-used and re-worked over time constantly and constantly. One of these gray quarters is the Flat River Valley across Nebraska. You know, it was a good kind of crossing for animals. The American Indians followed it. The early pioneer settlers followed it. The Telegraph, Pony Express, Lincoln Highway, and the Interstate 80, it just keep going back and back and back to the quarter. A lot of times these things take on a life of their own over time because they’re logical routes. Oftentimes, with these roads, you may have many, many multiple layers of history, one over top of another--literally--or side by side, as the case may be. So, again, I think it’s very important that you understand the kind of initial origins--whether it’s aesthetic, engineered, or cultural--because as decisions come up and compromises have to be made in the management of a historic road, these can be very important factors in terms of justifying decisions along the way. An example I would give, if you had a curve on an aesthetic road that was designed to showcase a particular natural feature and the curve didn’t meet modern highway guidance, you know, there might be a push to change the nature of that curve for safety, but changing the nature of that curve for safety could really have a negative impact on the historic design of the road and its purpose as an aesthetic road where that curve was very, very carefully considered. Comparatively, if you had an engineered route which had a curve, say, from the 1930s with our example, that had a nice kind of view off to the distance as well and that had a similar safety concern, you might look back at the history of those 2 roads and say, you know, the aesthetic road, you know, the landscape architects, the planners really carefully crafted this curve at this radius for this purpose for this view, whereas on the engineered road, that curve, while also having a nice aesthetic view today, really wasn’t crafted for that particular reason. It was probably just the basic engineering to get from A to B. So, when we come down to needing to make a change and alterations for our safety concern today, it’d be much easier to justify that change on the engineered road as long as you maintain the overall quality and character of the route as a historic road versus the aesthetic road. Does that make sense to everybody?  Have I lost anybody yet?

>> No.

>> Okay. A couple of people can say yes. It will help me to know if you’re with me.

>> Yes.

>> I teach a 3-hour lecture at George Washing University every week and I can always look into my students’ eyes. It’s always harder in a conference call to know if people are following or not. Certainly, do speak up if you have any questions. Again, I think these are really important concepts to understand in terms of what that initial origin is because it really can lay the groundwork for how you make policy determinations down the road for these types of resources and when you have to really, you know, argue that this is compromising the original design integrity versus the fact that it might compromise something that we’ve kind of associated with it over time. And that’s when it’s important to think about the different types of origins of these roads. I’m sure many of you are aware that a growing number of roads are actually now listed in the National Register of Historic Places. The list continues to grow and more and more roads are coming online. The National Register is a wonderful opportunity to acknowledge these types of resources and the same types of protections and reviews that you would see for a historic house or a courthouse can be applied to historic roads as well. So, it’s an excellent resource to consider, acknowledging a historic road. That being said, it carries all the pluses and minuses of the National Register recognition as well. Currently, there’s a wide variety of roads that are already listed in the National Register. The Merritt Parkway in Connecticut--which is part of the National Scenic Byways Program--is on the National Register. The Four Level--which was the first freeway-to-freeway interchange--in California where the Arroyo Seco Parkway, the California State Route 110 and US-101 intersect at Los Angeles--it’s the first high-speed interchange--that’s also listed in the National Register. For those of you that may not be aware, the National Register provides…  Before I just talk about the [INDISTINCT] roads, and many of our classic parkways and even country roads are listed in the National Register now. National Register has basically 2 tiers, if you will. There’s formal National Register listing--which goes through a whole process by which a road will be nominated to the State Historic Preservation Officer in your State for review, and if they feel that it meets the qualities and expectations of the Secretary of the Interior, they’re approved at the State level and forwarded to Washington for review and ultimate listing in the National Register. The second opportunity that you have is called “determination of eligibility,” or DOE. DOE is a process--which is a bit of a shorthand for the National Register--which goes through a similar process, but unlike National Register listing, DOE does not require the consent of the owner of the property. A DOE can be undertaken by anybody that basically makes the point that this is a significant resource, but it, oftentimes, can be helpful in terms of the politics of not everyone coming on board right away with endowing the resource enough to want to have it listed in the National Register. Again, policies change a little bit by State in terms of how much they embrace these policies or not, but if a historic road for example is listed in the National Register, or determined eligible by your State, the same provisions in the National Register apply, you know, formally. I think the main thing to be clear with it is that National Register listing, which many State Transportation Departments often are not overly keen on, one does not outright protect any resource. National Register simply establishes and initiates a Federal policy which creates a series of reviews to make sure that all possible considerations are reviewed before undertaking an action on a resource that’s recognized as a historic resource. National Register properties are lost every year to demolition and change, but what’s important about it is it does lay a framework to very carefully review impacts that may occur on a historic resource, in the case of our topic area, an Historic Road. So the National Register is a very, very valuable tool to consider in terms of one way of protection for your historic road. Most States have a parallel State Register process, and in most States, if you’re listed in the National Register, sometimes you’re automatically listed in the State Register. Again, that varies by state and in many States as well, if you’re listed in the State Register, it has a kind of a parallel, whereas National Register, if there’s any Federal funding or Permitting Action that’s required that kicks in the review, if you have a State Register, and many times States say if there’s any State funding or State Permitting that will kick in the review at the State level as well. And some communities do this at the local level also. Generally, in Preservation, we find that the strongest preservation policies and laws are at the local level. So, National Register listing, that’s something that’s very useful for you to be aware of. For many of you who have dealt with Section 106, which is the Federal Policy that kicks in for National Registry reviews, again, many States have a parallel effort. I believe, in New York, it’s 1409--which is their equivalent of 106 for State review. So, every State has, many States have a parallel process for this review as well.

>> Dan?

>> This is a very, very useful process and it certainly helps people to kind of take a step back and look at the impact of the historic roads over time. I should make a comment at this point. And I noticed this becomes a real important issue at many, many States--a lot of times there can be some friction between the State Preservation Office initiating this type of review by the Transportation Department, whether it be State level or local level. I think it’s really important to realize, one, as more and more people become conscious of historic roads. In most States the DOT--the transportation agency--is the largest agency in the State. In many States, the Preservation Office may have a staff of 3 to 4 or 8 to 10. So, there’s gigantic gap in terms of just the basic staffing. So, sometimes, there’s a perception that the Preservation Office kind of threw this up as a roadblock at the last minute when its process has been under design review for, oftentimes, years. I think it’s important to be aware of perception of roadblock versus reality. Oftentimes, it’s just the lack of resources to be monitoring all the different types of historic projects and resources across an entire State by a very tiny staff. So, for those of you in transportation departments, what I generally encourage is to be cognizant of roads that may have historic components. Or for local advocates as well, try to get the Preservation Office informed and engaged as quickly as you can, because even though it’s their responsibility to be monitoring these things, oftentimes they just truly don’t have the staff capacity to be on top of everything. And, oftentimes, I find it that projects are caught, you know, at the eleventh hour which ends up frustrating lots of people along the way. So, if you’re just aware of these basic differences in staffing, I think, you know, it’ll often be very, very helpful in terms of looking at those resources. A few States have actually started looking at inventory processes and developing some programs between the Preservation Office and the Transportation Department to start looking at, you know, basically, look at what types of resources are that might throw up some flags for consideration. New Jersey is in the process of developing an inventory of looking at historic roads by principal eras so that the State Transportation Department and the Preservation Office have more of a sense of some ground rules and what are important resources. And in Massachusetts, park roads and parkways, they’ve been developing an inventory of those to look and work with transportation agencies, so, the transportation agency can say, gosh, you know, this is one of those types of roads. You know, we’re not waiting for the Preservation Office to come to us. We might start thinking ahead that this is going to be something that may bring up some 106 issues down the road. So, again, thinking ahead, as with everything, is always I think a very, very important way of looking at these issues. As I said, more and more States and communities are looking at these types of issues now, and it’s getting increasing attention at the Federal level as well. And, as much as we’ve been talking lately about context sensitive solutions and flexible design, there’s been a growing discussion just as well with historic roads. And, if you’re not aware of, I’m going to make you aware of it. I’m sure many of you are familiar with AASHTO, the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials. They publish the Green Book, which is the general highway guidance that most States use for the State highway systems, and it’s the guidance that’s used by the Federal Highway Administration for the National Highway System. AASHTO, last year, actually published a practitioner’s handbook which is called, “Consultation Under Section 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act.”  This is a really useful document--and I would encourage you all to take a look at it. It’s about 20 pages. For transportation departments, it provides an introduction to Section 106 and suggests a way to kind of walk through the process and expectations to have for historic preservation and community involvement, etcetera. For preservation activists, it’s a great way of looking at how Section 106 is being interpreted to your transportation agency. It’s a very useful book. If you want to go to my website, which is www.historicroads.org, on the homepage you’ll see announcement for it and you can just go ahead and download it. So, then, I encourage you to become aware of these type resource. It’s useful. And, to me, it also shows the fact that folks involved with the national transportation policy are really beginning to understand that historic roads are a part of our national transportation system, and we need to look at them a little bit differently than we do other types of transportation and the special needs of your preservation and safety, etcetera, etcetera. So, any questions at this point?

>> Yes. Michael here with Volcanic Legacy Scenic Byway.

>> Yes?

>> Yeah, let’s back up a little bit to your historic road classifications and go to the cultural roads. Can you explain that for me again please?

>> Yes, cultural roads tend to be much more evolutionary. They tend to go back… it could be, you know, originally, an American Indian road, it could be an animal trace, to be a logical way that people traveled over, you know, high dry land through a swampy area, for example. Oftentimes, these quarters, no one sat down at one point and said, “Oh, let’s build a road across this swamp.”  It just kind of got used and re-used over and over and over again. So, you end up oftentimes with layers. What may happen in some of these instances is that maybe in 1920, with early Federal funding for highways, the road was graded and engineered and turned into an early State highway, which in that case will make it more of an engineered route in terms of the classification that I gave at the start. What I think is important to understand to understand with each road is the origin, the classification of the original idea of the road, and in this case it was a quarter that was historically in use through logic, through landform that basically evolved and came up over time. Why I mention these is these often have the kind of most layers of history and oftentimes have archeological components perhaps that may need to be considered as well. Even though there may be a very clear history of a determination in 1930 to construct it as an engineered road, or perhaps as an aesthetic road at one point, there could be layers of history in use below which may arise from concerns archeologically. It may also have earlier pavement history of below surface as well, plank roads, early macadam, compacted soils even that show roads and corridors. And we can find these, you know, all across the country. I specifically used the term “Indian roads” rather than trails. I think we often tend to diminish the infrastructure that we had in the United States by the native peoples. And if you read the Journals of Louis and Clark, they complain often about the poor quality of the Indian roads in many areas as they traveled west. But the fact that they’re calling them “roads” rather than “trails,” I think suggest a greater equality between what they were experiencing on the western travels and the quality or nature of roads that we had in terms of infrastructure in the eastern part of the United States during that period. So, it’s a bit of language, but I think it’s an important concept to consider. And depending on the parts of the country, you know, the Anasazi people in today’s southwest had a very sophisticated network of well-constructed engineered roads, guardrails to mountain passes and things like that. Again, for the cultural category, we’re looking at these multiple layers that kind of gets build up one over another. And it’s important, I think, to understand that origin of the road as well because that may have some larger implications for the larger cultural landscape as well, like I said, archeological considerations, too. Does that help with your question?

>> Thank you very much.

>> Okay. So, we’ve got these 3 categories to look at again: The aesthetic, engineered, and the cultural. I think it’s a good, useful way to kind of block things. There certainly are exceptions to all of these. So, early parkways that also carried higher speed traffic, there were certainly engineered routes, segments to the Lincoln Highway, in addition to the Seedling Miles, which some of you are familiar with, on the Lincoln Highway where they built a mile of ideal pavement to kind of convince people the value of modern transportation. The Lincoln Highway also constructed an ideal mile in Indiana where they brought in landscape architects and did all kinds of elaborate native plantings and beautiful pullouts and views and things like that. So, while we would associate the Lincoln Highway with an engineered route, as an engineered route, there were parts of that that had some really very strong aesthetic origins. So, again, it’s always nice to create these 3 little boxes: aesthetic, engineered, and cultural. But things don’t always fit nicely in these boxes as much as we’d like to expect, so, if you find with your road that it’s not quite fitting in, there might be, you know, some wiggle room and some different influences that shaped the origins of your road, and those are all very important as well. It’s also important to, I think, just to look back at the general history of highway construction and design in the United States. And I’m making this point again to reinforce the safety consideration if you think about this. Many times, historic roads, you know, there are concerns raised because they’re not safe if they don’t meet safety expectations that we have today. I would also remind you as well, I don’t believe that we ever consciously designed an unsafe road in our history. So, nobody ever said, “Gee, let’s create ‘Dead Man’s Curve’ here.”  You know, “Let’s create a [INDISTINCT] drop in this part of the road.”  Based on technology and engineering of each period, we’ve always tried to move a great step forward in terms of, you know, our treatment and design of roads. What’s happened is as vehicles change, driver behavior has changed over the years. And, oftentimes, that makes resources that might have been perfectly safe when they were originally designed not as safe today. So I think it’s important when people start raising the flag like, “Oh, you know, that’s completely unsafe.”  Maybe that’s basically what we’re using it today but let’s not blame the original designers, suggesting that it was a tremendous and egregious oversight on their part. So I think those are very important considerations. But as we look at historic roads, the idea of the history of the United States, you know, over time in terms of transcontinental highways, farm-to-market roads, the national grid, particularly in the center and in Midwest and the plains, these are our fairly mundane types of things but they’re part of the legacy of our transportation network in the United States. The Good Roads Movements at the end of the 19th Century was an era in which bicyclists, which really kicked off that idea, wanting to have reliable pavement and a little bit later--with the new automobile owners--were really pushing for improved highways for people to drive on. So, understand all those different layers of history, the Federal funding, the establishment of the State Highway Departments in the 1920s up to and through the Interstate Highway System. There’s been some really, really key eras of highway design. And we can take this back to post roads established by the British in New England, the Boston Post Road for example, the Caminos Reales, the Spanish Royal Roads in Florida, Texas, the Southwestern California, which were all established by colonial policy of Spain. So there’s a whole variety of history that we can draw back on, again, which all help to give us an understanding of why these roads came to be and help to explain some of the evolution over time. I find, oftentimes, when people look at the history, there’s also more of a fascination, which what happens along the edge of the road, the colonial tavern, the adobe gas station, the rustic community perhaps, than there is for actual the road itself. But to really start thinking about the details that grew out of these periods of history as well--pavement technologies, advances in paving, lighting details, curb and gutter, things like that. One of the things that I find happens a lot now with main street programs, which many of you have in your communities, and with context sensitive solutions and enhancement funds, people tend still, I think to default and look back on the main street. You know, they restore the buildings beautifully down to the last brick, the last bracket, the last window pane, and then they flip through a catalogue and they take out really pretty lighting that they like. And they plant trees that might be a hybrids that didn’t exist during that period, and put nice little benches. “Oh, we should probably have a clock, too. It’d be nice to have a clock in town.”  And after all these careful thought and consideration about the buildings in town, it’s almost like the history of the road around which the main street is organized kind of falls by the wayside. So, I encourage you when you work with communities and your own resources, particularly in built environments, you should think about the history of the road itself. And there’s all kinds of documentary evidence through letters, newspaper articles, photographs which can often give you clues back to what was there during a particular period. Now, I don’t want to suggest for a second that if you’re along an 18th Century turnpike in the Northeast that you need to like take up the asphalt and put in like, you know, a foot deep of mud and spatter the buildings with, you know, dust and mud--which would be historically appropriate to the period--but to at least understand the origin of what you had because then you can always work forward from there. And if the turnpike was a very, very important era of, say, in the history of the community, say, in Massachusetts, you know, coloring and texturing of the asphalt or the concrete could kind of suggest a surface that might give a sense of historicism while still meeting modern needs for efficiency and movement. It’s the same with lighting, street trees. And, again, the main thing too, I think, is to be very honest about what’s historic and what’s just building the overall evolution of a community. If there were no street trees historically, that’s one consideration. Street trees are desired for shade, as an amenity. It’s not that they should be banned, but you, again, should think about those in the context of a larger historic setting. But, again, I find oftentimes communities kind of go in and there’s sort of this sort of wish list and, oh, that one’s pretty, let’s put that down in there as well. And I encourage you certainly when you’re looking at installing any new hardware along a road is to look at the proportions of historic past as well. A lot of the modern lighting that we have that’s, you know, offered up as historical period lighting, I think the proportions are really bad, the globe of the light tends to be too big for the base that it’s on. Even though it stand up physically, it looks very awkward. So, again, looking back to period sources can be very helpful with these types of resources. There are also early examples of scenic roads back to the 19th Century as well as [INDISTINCT] with more of a scenic historic road. Most scenic roads in this country really tended to start evolving with the automobile age at the beginning of the 20th Century. The ones prior to that, there’s a few mountain roads in the areas that took people to experience scenic views, and, certainly, a number of cities in particular had developed parkways and park roads in the second half of the 19th Century. A good example of these types of accommodations looking at historic roads and accommodating modern change can be found on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago. Lake Shore Drive historically did not have a center median barrier, but because of change over time, of vehicle use, speed, etcetera, there was a need for center median barrier. Whether installing a typical Jersey barrier or a galvanized W-beam, the city actually designed a new barrier that picked up on some of the art-deco detailing of some of the original bridges from Lake Shore Drive and installed that as a median barrier as well. They also had a lower concrete barrier for the center median and they met the required height by having a steel rail across the top. And, so, the height is meant to provide the safety, but they reduced the mass of the overall wall visually so you get some more views out to the lake, which is very important in a scenic setting like that. I think this becomes really important when we look at historic roads. Again, safety is important, but there are many, many options, and the numbers continue to grow in terms of ways to provide standard safety but are more sensitive and more thoughtful to the historic origins of the road itself. The Columbia River Highway in Oregon in 1915 installed a post and wooden rail guard rail. If you hit it today, you would just go right through it into the river below. Again, like I said, we don’t ever find anything that’s consciously unsafe. That barrier that’s woefully inadequate today was written up in all the highway journals in the early 20th Century as a model, a national model, for a good safety feature on a road. So, again, far from our considerations to safety today, but clearly held up as a real, real good example during its period. What the State of Oregon did was they upsized the posts a few inches and put steel backing on the rails. So, the barrier today meets modern requirements for that class of road and looks almost exactly like the original barrier. These types of things certainly cost a lot more money than putting up a standard guardrail. What I would suggest, is that when we’re dealing with historic roads, it’s important to think about the contribution these have to our history and culture. Just like we spend money to maintain and care for places like Independence Hall or the local county courthouse, these roads deserve some extra considerations. And this is why I think options and opportunities through enhancements funds can use really particularly well. Rather than selecting things out of a catalogue, look at Federal and State funding to really look at and taking an existing historically recognized details and trying to make them work in the modern environment that we have today. This is also a case, too, why I think where the history of the road can really help to give you a sense of as to what level you should be pushing this. For an aesthetic road, like the Columbia River Highway, where all the views, all the details were very carefully considered, maintaining the aesthetic quality of the visual appearance of the original guardrail is important aesthetically and historically. If it’s an engineered route, which was much more pragmatic in its nature, it may be the case where a modern barrier is really fine if one is needed. Maybe there’s something you need to replicate the original one because the original one was more of just a standard barrier. There are options though even for many of the standard barriers now that have been redesigned to meet modern crashworthiness as well, so. The park service uses it, and many States have adapted this. Right now, there’s a timber rail which has a steel backing on it. It has a block out, which pulls the rail out from the post. That’s approved for use on all classes of roadways. It melds into the landscape much more nicely. There’s a new ironwood rail, which if you Google that, you can take a look at that. That looks more like a post and kind of log rail, a bit more rustic. That’s approved for all highway uses, for a number of highway uses. It has a very kind of nice rustic look for it as well. A number of States use Cor-ten. And I also know, from talking to some of you, there’s some growing concerns about the stability of Cor-ten now over time. So, Cor-ten, which has a kind of natural, kind of rustic appearance, which has been also popular for park and scenic areas, particularly the Cor-ten box theme, some States are looking at that now and re-evaluating the longevity of Cor-ten. A number of States are using the powder coated finish in dark brown, for example, which blends into the landscape much more nicely. The State of Maryland makes extensive use of that in some of the mountain areas and around the capitol area. In Annapolis, that has some problems with flocking as well. So, again, lots of these things still have issues associated with them, but they’re all worthy considerations. For those of you with scenic roads that may have historic stone barrier walls, there are new designs now that have a concrete core in the center of the wall with stone facing on it. In many times, we’re using the original stone facing. So, what this really shows is there are lots of ways to enhance safety and crashworthiness of a road today without making it look like an interstate highway. And one thing that I would suggest to you all to think about if safety issues come up, which they often do with historic roads, there’s something that ASSHTO references in the Green Book, and I don’t think it’s discussed nearly enough. It’s what’s called expectancy. And AASHTO goes into detail about the fact that when people travel on a road, they read the clues. If people approach a terminal within the airport, even though there’s all kinds of signs about you’re supposed to slow down, you’re supposed to slow down, most people instinctively slow down because they know they’re going into a congested, dense area. People, you know, if they tend to be driving over the speed limit, tend to slow down in an urban area than when they’re on the open highway. If you drive along Route 1 in California where there aren’t many guardrails, dropping you into the Pacific Ocean, people tend to be a bit more cautious at times because they read that edge of the road. It’s not viewed visually as safe and people tend to respond that way. And AASHTO says this is another part of looking at the safety of a road. What I would suggest on the historic road, particularly with lengthier historic roads, sometimes there’s a tendency to rebuild a section of a road as moneys are available or an issue comes up. What can sometimes happen is you end up changing the expectancy. If it’s a twisting, winding mountain road, you know, after a few miles, people catch on to that and they start responding to it instinctively. If suddenly they go around the corner and the road is wider with giant shoulders and big guardrails, they always speed up. But then if they go on to the next corner and they’re back to the twisting, winding road again, there’s a conflict point all of a sudden, and it’s become really dangerous areas where those 2 types of roadway intersect. So, I would argue that there are times when in theory upgrading the road in this section improves the safety of that area. You know, it doesn’t necessarily, so do try to look at the road holistically. And I deliberately just used the word “upgrading” just now. Particularly for preservation advocates, a lot of times, highway construction projects, safety projects are uniformly referred to as “upgrades or improvements.”  And I’ve been at many public meetings for preservationists have stood up and said we’re against the improvement, we’re against the upgrade. And, right away, just through language, you know, it doesn’t really make sense. So, I will encourage you when you’re talking about projects that are planned for historic roads to refer to them, you know, with less of a value statement. You know, we’re concerned about the construction project in this segment. We’re concerned about the proposed development for this area. We’re concerned about the improvement. Nobody should ever be concerned about an improvement, but we should all be concerned about what the impact it’s going to have on the history and integrity of the road itself. So, again, I think the idea of looking at all these issues and kind of building up, looking at the concerns for safety and being aware of the options. Another thing to be aware of as well, is just the functional classification of the road itself. All roads in the United States have classifications which range from local up to freeway. And if you look at the Green Book guidance, the standards that are recommended based on functional classification vary. A shoulder can be considerably narrower on a local road than it should be on a freeway. And a lot of times what happens is it’s kind of uniform. In many places, I find that there’s sort of a uniform application of standard. This is the shoulder that we just use by default, this is the guardrail we use by default. The blocking out of the guardrails where you have the extra block to push the rail out from the post itself, that’s required for a higher speed road. It’s not required for local roads. So, again, you know, we tend of just kind of use a single detail and use it on neighborhood street or all the way up to the freeway. A lot of times with historic roads, when we’re looking at changes to improve the safety and the function of the road, you know, that’s the case, to me, particularly if it’s an aesthetic route where every inch, every foot, where we can help  to maintain the original cross-section, the original look of the road is really important. If by looking at the recommended guidance, and taking advantage of the allowable ranges even if it’s a local road or a collector road, you know, many feet of pavement and asphalt can be saved if we look at the guidance directed towards that level of functional classification. But, again, like I said, in many States, we tend to find that it’s almost a lot of times a uniform application of the standard across the board because this is the cross-section that we use for a State highway. And, again, the functional classification may offer you a bit more variation or variety along those lines. So, just think about that. I also as well would encourage you, when safety considerations come with historic roads, is to really look closely, you know, at the hard science. A lot of times, you know, the curve isn’t safe. Okay, why isn’t it safe?  What’s the accident history?  Is it simply because of the geometrics or what we would do today?  Or is it because people are being killed because those are two very, very different realities. And, again, going back to this idea of expectancy, I think sometimes if you overly change the character of the road, you may have problems in the long run. You may not be helping safety at all. A number of the park roads at Yellowstone National Park were built almost about 8 or 9 years ago, the roads were brought up sensitively, but nonetheless brought up to a new level of safety based on modern expectations. What’s happened since the roads were “improved” is that there’s actually been an increase in accidents and wildlife kill because people are driving faster now. So you can make the argument or make at least the observation perhaps that the original alignment of the roads, while not necessarily what we would do today, had a certain built-in safety responsibility for it. I was in a community once where there was this historic brick pavement and people tended to slow down oftentimes, with that audible rumble under their tires and they were going to take that out. And I said, well, this in a way is acting as  traffic calming to slow people down. “Oh, well, don’t worry about that. We’re going to put in speed humps after we rebuild the road.”  Well, you lost its historic character and you lost the built-in traffic calming and you’re adding in a new traffic calming feature on top of it. So, again, looking at historic roads, sometimes, there are some features of the roads that I would argue actually do help to enhance or provide traffic calming or create safe driving environment as well. And it’s very important when we look at changes on historic roads to not just use the knee-jerk sort of like, you know, the book says this isn’t safe, therefore, we rebuild it, but actually say is there a really compelling reason to do this?  Is the way we’re doing this the most responsible way?  Then if it’s determined that it does need to be done, are there details such a guardrail or taking advantage of the flexibilities with functional classification to really do as much as we can to maintain the historic integrity of the road itself?  So these things all come into play. And along the same line, too, I would just encourage you to consider the uniformity of the application of these concerns as well. I’m sure many of you are aware of the concept of clear zone whereby we maintain on the interstate, for example, 30 feet that’s free of any hazards that people in the vehicle leave the road, when you cross the shoulder and then you’ve got ideally a lawn or grass area or an open area where your car has time to recover and ideally get back to the road. The idea of a forgiving road side, it’s very important. It’s talked about a lot by AASHTO in the Green Book. But I’ve also seen in communities where they’ve cut down the trees along the side of a historic road to maintain the clear zone but they’ve left the utility poles because the utility company doesn’t want to move the poles--it’s too expensive. Well, what’s the difference between any utility pole and an oak tree?  So the consistency of the standard, you know, there’s always some politics and some discussions and everything--utility poles stay but the trees go. Have we really, really sufficiently improved the safety of that road by cutting the trees down—we’ve certainly has taken away some historic character of the road. So, again, looking at these issues, looking at how safety is reported, I think it’s very, very important. And it’s always tricky with an historic road and you can go in and say, you know, you can make an argument for safety and, you know, you don’t want to give the sense that you’re unsympathetic, but, also, a lot of times, like I said, you know, let’s be sure that we really understand the scientific origins as to why something is needed and necessary. And, again, is it based on compelling evidence or is it based just on the fact that the moneys come up and it doesn’t meet the standard of the State or local jurisdiction currently holds?  So, there are good examples around the country of roads that are really trying to strike at least such a balance. We’ve got a number of examples in Milestones to Mile–Markers as well. I want to move on to some questions in just a minute here, but just a couple of general thoughts. These vary so much by region and locale, by management, and it’s important to understand all these nuances as you move into these things. I mentioned earlier, National Register listing is a tremendous opportunity to help get another level of recognition and review for historic roads, but I can also tell you from a preservation point of view there are a number of State Preservation offices that still don’t really see the value or recognize the resource as that important to the overall State historic preservation mission. So, I don’t know, within the preservation world, there’s still a need for education regarding historical roads as well. Just because you take the nomination up to the Preservation Office in your State capital, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to get a good review. So, thinking about those options and political reality, this is also an important part of this, certainly. There’s a case study that runs through Milestones to Mile-Markers at the end of each chapter that looks at a unique pavement called granitoid in Duluth. I think it’s a, we deliberately chose that case study because it walks through I think many of the rises and falls of many communities and governments deal with as they look at historic roads. Well, like I said, there are a number of good examples and there’s a lot of good energy out there right now that really is moving this topic forward. More and more people are looking at these resources and States are developing programs and protocols to start addressing historic roads and increasing numbers. So, this is all good, and, certainly, the more you can borrow or find an example ideally within your State or from a neighboring State helps to raise these issues. We have on the historic roads website--again, historicroads.org--legislation from the State of Hawaii which originally came out and said that flexible design has been found by the State legislation of Hawaii does not mean the road is less safe. It simply looked at alternative means of providing safety. It’s such a very nice kind of powerful political statement from the State of Hawaii saying that, you know, “We endorse the idea of flexible highway design and we back it intellectually.”  Those are the powerful things to have. The State of Maryland with the national road in Western Maryland, the first Federally funded highway in 1806 and an all-American road under the National Scenic Byways Program, part of the continuing entire 6-State National Road has developed new State highway guidance to deal with the aesthetics and maintenance and care of that segment of the road, recognizing it’s still used as part of the US Route 40 today in many areas, but it also can support historic, a part of the State heritage as well. So, the State Highway Administration in Maryland developed an alternate set of guidance for that particular road. Connecticut has specific guidance policy for the Merritt Parkway. So, a number of States are looking at ways to kind of manage their historic roads. And we’re seeing this also with a number of local jurisdictions around the country as well. Philadelphia and New York both have ordinances now for cobblestone and brick alleyways and streets in terms of their maintenance and care over time. So, more and more of these resources are becoming recognized and people are tending to work forward and develop policy for them. So I know you all have some very specific roads and I guess, at this point, Chel, might we open it up to some general questions?

>> Let’s open it up to questions. So, again, when you ask your question, just state your name and then go ahead with your question.

>> I’ll offer the first question. This is Chel, and my question to you, Dan, is when a byway is just starting to assess the inventory for it as a historic road, let’s say they are just venturing under their corridor management planning process, what are some of the most critical steps you think a byway needs to take?

>> I should say, one, certainly, at the beginning, figure out what your historic origin is--are you aesthetic, engineered, cultural?--and assemble as much data as you can to kind of back that up and get a read. And, certainly, when we’re talking about byways, too, I’ve been focusing a lot on the physical road itself, but the idea of the corridor, the corridor is so very important with our historic roads. I’ve talked a lot about the provision of use with the aesthetic roads where the views that might come in over time as well. The supporting of cast, if you will, alongside the road, taverns, motor courts, drive-in theaters, motels, early rest stops, al of these structures, gas stations, help to tell a story of transportation. They could be, too, and I say this is a landscape architect, don’t overly focus on the idea of buildings as well. Think about historic farm patterns, orchards, ranch lands, natural systems and natural features, rock outcroppings, the play between woodland to meadow to woodland to field, those kinds of patterns along the edge of your road as well. And to try to really start getting those clearly, clearly understood as part of the resource component. It really supports the story of the historic road. If you’re successful at preserving the alignment, the materials, all the original details, I mean, the whole supporting cast, the whole contextual setting is lost, what does it really matter?  Parts of the El Camino Real, the great Spanish railroad, the mission trail up the California Coast, you get to south of San Francisco and it’s Jack-in-the-Box and McDonald’s and Motel 6 and all that, and, you know, here I am, you know, traveling on this great historic road but there’s no sense of it at all. And I think that’s important, too, for many byways. And a number of byways, there may be segments that don’t quite reinforce the original character of the byway for which it was nominated. And that’s certainly okay under policy because all roads have all been changed over time, but to be aware of these issues as you’re looking at a byway, historic in particular, and how these stories might be told or interpreted, you could even make the argument, say, on, say, the National Road, again first Federally funded highway--Maryland to Pennsylvania to West Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois. There are stretches of the National Road today that go through modern commercial strips. Is that unsightly or is that kind of a sign that we put this road in a really smart place in 1806 and people have been continuously using it over time--which is exactly why McDonald’s is there, it was a good decision in the 19th century and it’s still a good decision in the 21st century. That gives you the larger picture of what you have historically. Now, if all the images you’re using to get your visitor to the byway are kind of covered bridges and old taverns, you might want to help to explain to them through interpretation why the McDonald’s and the Motel 6 are relevant to the history of the road lest they kind of say, you know, I’ve been sold a bill of goods with these whole driving experience. But, again, that’s going to vary by its origin. The National Road is so much more of what we would put into the engineered category. It wasn’t designed for a great scenic drive, you know, from the East Coast into the Middle West. It was designed as a road to open up the interior of the nation to commerce. So you can make the very clear argument that having McDonald’s along side of the road means it was a great success. But, again, does the byway traveler understand that so?  I think it’s important that we look at the entire corridor we have with historic roads, particularly some of the longer roads with 66--Lincoln Highway, the National Road--some of our much longer historic road corridors, because these just by default and nature are going to then have segments that don’t necessarily reinforce, you know, a 19th century aesthetic or early 20th century kind of idea of the great motor ride across Route 66. So, keeping all of these in mind and looking at these variances can be very important. But do that homework, do the groundwork, if you’re not listed in the National Register, be sure that you get that done at least for segments of the road that will qualify. Lay down that history. Also, if you’re looking at National Register nomination, include in that references the views and things like that as well. These things can all come back and help you later on down the road even if the view is across private property and it’s not publicly owned, just by acknowledging that in the National Register, you’re suggesting that it’s part of the history and character of the resource. If it’s privately owned and someone chooses to, you know, build a subdivision and local zoning allows that , if there is local zoning, there’s not a lot that you can do about it, but there’s always the possibility that maybe it’s been purchased by a public entity to build, say, a new public school and there are Federal funds involved with that, which would kick in the 106 process, and you can go back to the National Register nomination and say, gosh, you know, the nice view from the curve on the road across the fields was recognized under Register listing, you’re using Federal funding now, you know, so we can start looking backwards. Now, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the school won’t be built, but maybe it does mean that if the building is shifted, you know, a hundred yards to the left or the right, it preserves that view corridor. Or maybe there’s a screening for the parking lot at the school to help maintain the sense of the openness that was there before. So being very strategic with the National Register nominations and looking very broadly at the materials and the details and alignments in all the views, I think it’s very, very important. And go back and look at the existing National Register listings if you haven't currently and really see in the early years of the National Register nominations were fairly brief and fairly limited in terms the descriptions. There might be some that you need to go back and really update your National Register listing as well. So, for historical roads, the byways program--and that’s quite a number of the byways, it’s one of the largest categories in the National Scenic Byways Program-these are all real issues. And we certainly can’t control every aspect of the view shed. We can’t return everything back visually to a particular period in time and history. But what we can do is--and, again, by understanding the origin of the road--try to maintain as much as the history and character as possible and, again, being aware of the larger contextual setting as well. If you saved the great 18th century tavern along the side of the National Road--and it’s completely surrounded by a new community of townhouses--does that really give the sense of the single beacon of light after the rough journey?  You know, the context is really lost and the story isn’t really fully taught. You have a nice little architectural memento, if you will, but the idea of traveling at night through the darkness and seeing the flicker of a candle in a window up ahead is a much different experience than rounding the corridor and seeing a whole bunch of high pressure sodium lights surrounding this suburban community with a little historic building in the middle of it. So just think about those issues about contexts and setting as well. There’s a lot of really good literature available from the National Register that talks about cultural landscapes. And if you’re dealing with a historic road, I’d encourage you to take a look at those. They can give some good guidance in terms of how to inventory these types of resources and make them work better for you. Again, too, there are lots of resources. I’ve talked a lot about more specificity with safety issues and alternatives. But these programs for agricultural easements, farm preservation programs, these might be things that you really want to really take advantage of for a historic road. And the other things to think about as well with historic roads when we talk about some of the views off of a historic road, think about again really the very shrewd and strategic use of enhancement funds, for example. You know, people talk a lot about under-grounding utilities, but that’s incredibly expensive. Utilities often don’t like to do it. But think about this scenario. Maybe it’s a case where it’s fine to have the overhead utilities for miles and miles and miles along your historic road, but maybe at that great curve where you’ve got a great view out to the ocean at one point, maybe it’s a good point there to use some funds and underground those wires for maybe half a mile because you really take the view that’s kind of been encumbered by all the lines and you really ratchet it up and really make it spectacular because that’s the point where people are really looking and watching. This is really important now, too, with things like cell towers. Look way, way beyond the edges of your road. It could be some, you know, miles off could have an impact on you. And if part of your great historic driving experience is the view to the Sugarloaf Mountain, you know, 10 miles ahead, you know, you might want to be aware of what’s going on in that corridor. Again, you can’t control the whole thing, but if you recognize it as an issue, you may be able to have some influence down the road, either just through a good kind of neighborly conversation or through having the backup of some National Register references. Does that help, Sheryl?

>> Yes, it does.

>> I have a question related to that. My name Annette Sheryl Smith and I’m going to in the future be working on Long Island Parkway corridor management plan, so I’m just getting my toes into the stream here. I wanted to find out is there a point if in an aesthetic type of road, historic road, a parkway where it ceases to be recognized as historic because it was so dependent on the context of the landscape around it?  At what point does the compromise that a roadway undergoes start to erode the incredibility of the [INDISTINCT]?

>> That’s an excellent point: At what point do you just get to the point where it’s kind of all gone and it’s a lost cause?  I think there’s a couple of ways to look at that. I would look at 2 factors generally. One is the actual design and construction of the road itself and the affiliated landscape. Clearly, if the road has been altered, re-aligned, you know, beyond the original concept and the supporting landscape is completely gone, you know, you really have something that’s maybe a nice story but not really a historic road. If the road has been dramatically changed over time and re-aligned, shifted, bridges replaced, but you have the whole historic landscape in place, you still got a resource that you might want to consider. Conversely, if the original road is pretty much intact but the landscape has been largely lost, you’ve got to visit the Historic Resource. Then I think it starts becoming a balancing act. One thing that can be considered, too, is this would change over time. Are there ways in which some of the historic setting can be restored, for example?  There might be cases where buffering ande new plantings to restore some of the landscape. Now, if the whole idea of the road historically, its setting was a broad views across the open fields, that becomes more difficult to restore because there’s been a lot of new development. If it’s an issue of the road going through a woodland, it’s possible whereby a dense planting of trees could kind of reinforce the sense of enclosure that you had historically along the road edge. I hate to be vague with this. These really becomes such site specific concerns to address historical roads because there is that tipping point where it’s kind of it’s too late and it’s all gone. Sometimes, if you look back at the history of the documentation of the road itself, you can get a sense, too, of what the expectation was. For example, the Arroyo Seco Parkway in Los Angeles, 1940, and maybe you may notice the path of the freeway today, was planned to go through Fleet parkland on the corridor, maybe about a third of that was ever actually required. There was actually a lot of early industrial use along the side of the parkway. One of the industrial sites was originally purchased by the Trust for Public Land with the plan of taking it down and creating the park, and that part of Los Angeles is very under-parked. Some of the preservation people said, you know, if you look back at the context and the setting of the road in 1940, that wasn’t industrial use. So turning that into parkland is inappropriate. But then other preservationists looked back and said if you look at the original plans for the corridor back at the beginning of the 20th century, it was to have an all-park corridor, so can we not say that, you know, we’re still moving forward with the original concept from the beginning of the century. So, with Long Island, you deal with a lot of really intensive use of the Long Island parkway and a lot of changes both within terms of the physical road itself, in terms the changes in hardware, the addition of shoulders and pavement over time and the setting itself. I’m not sure, in particular, which parkway you’re talking about now, but I would suggest there are still sufficient areas of the system where you still get a sense of the environmental setting that was there historically. And I think that becomes a judgment call. My gut feeling is that there is still sufficient contextual feeling there to still consider it as a historic road but that maybe it’s getting close to the tipping point where if you lose another bit of that road edge, you really start getting to the point where you really can’t consider it to be a parkway any longer. Does that clarify that a bit at all?

>> Well, that helps a lot. Thank you.

>> Okay. These are really, they are a very tricky issues. These also become issues, too, when you’re dealing with multiple histories over time as well. You know, it’s very easy to draw a line around a box and say, well, we’re going to take this back to 1940, but there might be a larger picture or pattern there. Again, when you know the whole history of your road, it can make it much easier for you to look at some of these intellectual concerns and considerations. And these things come up over time. On the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut, for example, they planted a lot of, when the parkway was first completed in 1940, the State planted a lot of fast-growing trees to give a pretty quick sense of enclosure for the parkway, screen out some unwanted views and to make it look green and bucolic as quickly as possible, and mixed with the quick-growing trees, they planted the traditional eastern oaks and maples that grow much more slowly with the idea that as the kind of major trees grew, these temporary ones would be taken out. Well, they were never taken out and now they’re habitat. It’s a whole new issue here. So there’s the historic documentation and, like, look, this was never intended to stay. Views to some water features on the parkway have been lost over time now because the landscape wasn’t consistently maintained over time and things that were intended as temporary were never removed. Now, they become habitat issues. So what do you do in a situation like that?  It becomes a very, very gray issue. I don’t want to argue destroying the habitat for endangered species, but I also like to see the view of a pond that was planned in 1940 restored to the parkway as well. I would say, oftentimes, I think in our society, we tend to do a whole lot of black and white comparison. You know, they’re going to have to give up the habitat and we need to restore the parkway and maybe there’s some gray area in the middle, too, perhaps some selective clearing, limbing up in some areas. You can restore at least some filtered views that were intended originally and maybe still maintain the quality of the habitat. So, do think about issues like where there can may be some shifting and change over time. And, certainly, in the area that’s like the Long Island Parkway, it’s experienced a lot of development over time, if you look back at some of the original design of a parkway and if you look at the original, again, when it’s an aesthetic road--a road that’s designed for pleasure--and, again, the parkways were also designed a bit for efficiency in the movement of people as well, but if you look back at the original concept which you can find, you know, written down, you know, it’s kind of going to be this experience, you know, through the woods, through the fields, you know. If it’s that experience that’s trying to be created or captured initially, there might be a case where replanting and reforestation can actually help to restore that. It could be the case, too, where some berming or gentle hills are built up can help to give the sense of the green edge where there’s no longer. So there can be so many ways of trying to work with these things proactively. Again, that’s why I think it’s so important to ask what the original purpose behind the road was. If you understand that, it’s much easier to make what can be difficult decisions way down the road. And, most importantly, have somebody go back to the [INDISTINCT]. We chose this route and this solution because if you look back at documentation, historic images, we find this pattern, we find this goal, we find this expectation, and by doing this, we’re reinforcing that over time. Other questions?

>> Dan, this Cindy Plumkonan. Hi.

>> Hi, Cindy.                    


>>Along the same line, if you have a road that you know is historic that’s evolved and was originally designed to move goods through the area and now it’s evolved to become an interstate, can that still be part of that original scenic road?

>> In terms of just Scenic Byway designation?

>> Yes.

>> I would say yes. Again, there are already segments of the interstate system, you know, that are part of the National Scenic Byways Program, the [INDISTINCT] Greenway in Washington State, for example, has a very significant interstate component to it. I think it’s important with the Scenic Byways program--and this is where your history really can be a big help for you--I maintain or I continue arguing here in Washington that there has been an overwhelming predominance of energy on the scenic components on the Scenic Byways program, and that we have 6 equally weighted intrinsic qualities: Scenic, historic, natural, archeological, cultural, and recreational. And if the purpose of a route, say, that was originally for commercial movement of goods, if part of that road today happens to be a part of the interstate highway system, if the story you’re trying to convey is the movement of goods from A to B, then it would be a case where it’s very easy to justify the interstate component of that historic road because it’s, again, it’s a continuation, it’s the evolution of that corridor over time, it was put in a logical place and now, you know, it just got bigger and bigger and wider and it became part of the interstate highway system. So I think you could make that argument. It’s also important I think with resources like that, well, since the byways are designed primarily, you know, for visitors, and, you know, what’s the experience for the visitor?  And, you know, I think sometimes resources like this, it’s less about, you know, getting a sense of actually traveling on the turnpike and it’s more about the sense of moving along the corridor from A to B. So I would equate that perhaps like a commercial strip along a segment of the national road. But I think it becomes very important to, one, let the byway traveler know that perhaps part of this route is on the interstate and remind the traveler that it’s not an interstate just because we can get you quickly from A to B but that the good people of New Jersey put this road in such a good spot in the 19th century that we’re still using it today and it’s still part of our major, major transportation infrastructure. And that’s the case where I think interpretation is extremely important, that people understand that kind of story of evolution. The visitor’s expectations are very clear that it’s not all going to be on, you know, kind of a rural, old, forgotten turnpike, parts of this road but maybe on high speed highway as well. You set that expectation. You have that be part of your corridor management plan. And I think in those cases, it becomes very logical and people will understand and see that transition. But just having the byway, you know, people still tend to instinctively think of byway as kind of like byway, which means it’s kind of secondary, you know, a lesser route. You put them on the interstate or, you know, a major State highway and suddenly it doesn’t quite meet with the visitor expectation, and I think that’s what’s so very important with Scenic Byways programs that we establish, you know, clear, clear expectations about, you know, why this route was designated. And it was designated as an historic corridor moving people and goods from A to B. We’re following the corridor and it may not all be a 19th century aesthetic for you. I think it’s always good to go back to the Las Vegas strip in Nevada because that’s, to me, the great savior for all questions you have with the Scenic Byways program. It’s not a narrow winding road. It’s not a parkway. It’s a big, gaudy, wide road full of lots of neon. And it’s a National Scenic Byway. It’s an all-American road, and a National Scenic Byways program. And the nomination for that road and its reason for being in the collection, I cannot think of anything more logical. It’s about culture of people and recreation and enjoyment in our society and in our culture. And I think it’s important, too, to live up to these designations and work with them. A friend of mine that actually works at the city of Las Vegas, and I believe it was a Walgreen’s or a CVS on the strip and their permit, building permit, was held up because the city said they didn’t have enough neon on the building to mix in with the strip nicely. And they actually brought up the issue that it’s an all-American road corridor under the National Scenic Byways program and the expectation in Las Vegas is that new construction on that road will continue to go with this idea of this like glamorous, glitzy, sparkling nighttime byway. So, the expectation is set in the byways program, you know, so, the city working with it maintains it over time. So, that’s what my suggestion would be with, you know, with your question from New Jersey. Does that help?

>> Yes, thank you Dan.

>> Any other questions?

>> I have one but I want others to go since I already asked one.

>> I’ll ask a quick one. It’s Greg Graken. Dan, what about a road that has all three elements over time, can you sort of say that this is the Delaware River Scenic byway, so it’s, you know, Trenton and Washington’s crossing but part of it has become sort of a modern highway and then a lot of it is country road but it does have the aesthetic. It’s certainly cultural and historical, but it also has great scenic views along a wild and scenic designated river. So, do you have any comments when it has all 3 elements?  And I’d also like to ask about why the historic register is such a critical component you believe.

>> Well, I guess first thing I would say was in terms of the 3 categories--engineered, aesthetic, and cultural--my question for you is, was any part of the byway order in Delaware deliberately designed as an aesthetic route or is it a road that has aesthetic qualities associated with it?

>> Aesthetic qualities associated with it.

>> To me, that’s, it’s really important…

>> Can I?  I happen to know a little bit about that particular road that he’s talking about. It was actually in the 1920s identified as one New Jersey’s scenic roads and something to the commissioner when they were developing it. So, maybe it did have, some parts of it have a characteristic that was designed for aesthetic.

>> I think what’s important to find out is if it was specifically designed for an aesthetic purpose versus if it has even historically been acknowledged aesthetically. There was a big push in the 1910s and 20s for people to go out in the new motor cars and see the beauty of the United States. And a lot of roads were designated as scenic in the 1920s. And a lot of roads were floated that way. So, again, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it was actually designed, made by a landscape architect or part of a conscious effort. So, again, I don’t mean to be splitting hairs, but, the aesthetic qualities that you’re referencing are very important. It’s important to find out if they were deliberately designed as part of the alignment of that road or if the road was just kind of happily located and they’re associated with it. In that case, you’d end up with maybe 2 categories, kind of the cultural evolution and more of a pragmatic engineered type of road that has aesthetic qualities that we associate with it today. What I would say in a case like that is to try to look at these origins, particularly each of the different segments. You know, these roads becoming incredibly complex all of a sudden, and it may be the type of thing, too, with some of these roads where you may find that you have one segment of the road that’s particularly expressive of, say, you know, the 1920s and another section that was more expressive of, say, you know, the 19th century. And, maybe, you know, your immediate plan isn’t necessarily that the entire road from A to B reflects this overall character but that the road from A to B is a historic corridor over these multiple things that has happened and then kind of a way that you manage certain parts of the road reflects some of the substance of different eras that are still very largely or more largely intact than they are in other parts of the road as well. These become a very, very complex issue and that’s why I think it’s important, one, if there was a conscious plan by saying let’s get an architect to carefully lay out the alignment of that road with views and vistas, you need to know that. If it’s more a case where the road was kind of located there and people, you know, at the beginning of the 20th century stated acknowledging that it’s scenic. These are 2 very different types of historic resources. And I would say if it’s acknowledged as scenic, it gives you a bit more flexibility where you’re looking at a history of recognition of scenic qualities, but you’re not quite constrained by the fact that, Frederick Olmstead, the great landscape architect, you know, created the extra curve at this particular part of the road at this point. So I think that’s, you know, a little bit more research maybe on your part to find out the exact origins of the road over time. And it could be a very interesting story, too, if it’s being acknowledged as scenic in the early 20th century. There might be some very interesting articles about encouraging people to, you know, leave the city for the day, take a drive and that could be a whole new treasure trove of information about the history of the road, some of the resources along the road that might have been developed for early visitors. Again, particularly with the comment that it was acknowledged as scenic in the early 20th century, there could be some very, very rich history that’s associated with that in terms of travel references. Look at local papers. The New York Times has tons of articles from the 1910s and 20s about scenic drives, actually on Long Island, drive the old turnpikes of Long Island and they give recommended routes for day trips out of the city. I would expect the same from the papers in Philadelphia and Baltimore and Boston and the other cities around the country for that period. People really were getting their cars and taking out on these roads. And that might be a very important part of your history, not necessary the road was built as an aesthetic route specifically, but that it was very early associated with pleasure driving, and that gives you I think a very nice history to fall back on, and you can start tying in Washington crossing the Delaware and just kind of a larger history with that as well.

>> Okay. Thank you.

>> Are there any more questions for Dan?  Well, Dan, this has been a fantastic call. I appreciate all your wisdom and collective knowledge about historic roads. And I encourage all of you to dig into the book a little bit more. Check out Dan’s website and if you want to continue the conversation, we have set up a discussion forum for you on bywaysonline.org and you’re welcome to continue the conversation there. And I’m sure Dan will log in himself and be available to answer questions and be an expert out in the field for all of us. Okay?

>> I’ll be happy to do that. I’d also like to invite you all out to Albuquerque this September 11th to 14th. It will be the 6th Biannual Preserving Historic Road Conference. That will be 4 days of discussions on identifying historic roads, management techniques. I will be talking about the new national cooperative highway program research project looking at actually the idea of ultimately establishing guidance for historic roads at the Federal level. These and many more topics will be discussed over 4 days out in Albuquerque this September. Information of the conference is available at historicroads.org also. I also want to thank Chel again for inviting me to work with you on this call. And, again, I thank the Byways Resource Center for the idea of developing Milestones to Mile-Markers few years back. It was a fun project and I hope the resource useful. 

>> I appreciate receiving the book. Thank you.

>> Well, thanks everyone. And thanks, Dan. We look forward to seeing Dan at the Historic Roads Conference if not before.